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Poll
JRR Tolkien
Worse than Robert E Howard 10%
Better than Howard, worse than Edgar Rice Burroughs. 1%
Between Burroughs and L. Frank Baum. 6%
Above Baum, below C.S. Lewis. 19%
Better than alla them! He's as good as Marion Zimmer Bradley! 61%

Votes: 118

 Tolkien, autism, and geeks: peas in a pod.

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Dec 10, 2001
 Comments:
episode I

Making no distinction between inside and outside is one of the hallmarks of medieval literature. Not until the late middle ages and early renaissance phases do we see a clear understanding that people have an inner life. Until then, everyone is an open book, so to speak. What you see them doing and saying is identical with what they think and feel, and in fact medieval authors lack the metaphors and language to articulate thoughts and feelings in the way we are used to. Instead, their characters must externally act out their inner world. It was in essence an autistic society.

This limitation has resulted in some beautifully stylized literature for modern readers to enjoy, but it also gives us insight into the reality of one of the most tragic kinds of mental illness. To a lesser degree, this helps us understand why those who suffer from mild autism--perhaps we should call them the "functionally autistic"-- the so-called "geeks", are so fascinated by medieval writings and their settings, and in particular have a love for that most autistic of modern authors, J.R.R. Tolkien.

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Tolkien is well-known as the author of The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and it is popularly understood that he was a competent scholar of some kind. In fact, this popular perception is close to the truth, as Tolkien was a top medievalist, whose translation of such vital works as Sir Gawain and the Green Knight were accepted as standards for decades. What is interesting in this is the reason why Tolkien's status as the author of the definitive Gawain text was stripped away, to be surpassed by such poet-scholars as Burton Raffel. Raffel himself, in his own, as it were, "heroic yelp" prefacing his Gawain tells us exactly what is so wrong with Tolkien:
    ...[Tolkein, et. al.] have concentrated much more on the arcane trade of editing than they have on the much simpler and more direct occupation of understanding, of reading the poem as the poet tried to have us read it. I do not mean to be ungrageful, or bite the hand that feeds me, but I'm afraid John Spiers is (for a change) right when he groans that the Tolkien/Gordon/Davis text "merely slavishly reproduces the deficiencies, confusions, and inconsistencies of the copyist's spelling in the Cotton Nero IX manuscript." He is right too when he attacks the books lengthy, mostly irrelavent notes... It is no defense of Tolkien, Gordon, and Davis, but most literary criticism suffers from just their kind of "lengthy, mostly irrelavent" insensitivity to the poem as a poem. [1]
Raffel, after declaring this challenge, proceeds to slay the Tolkien beast in classic knightly style, giving us a version of Gawain worthy of the original's poetic strength and emotional power. In particular, Raffel reveals the original work's humor and it's sexuality, two things that Tolkien seems to fail completely to sense or to communicate.

In Tolkien's creative fiction, the lack of jokes and sex is not in any way due to his use of medieval motifs and settings. Recall that Victorianism is a 19th century phenomenon, and Puritanism goes back only to the 16th century. The writings of the 12th, 13th and 14th centuries are positively florid with physical passion, emotional torrents (told in external symbols to be sure) and even sexual violence. The medieval sense of irony too was keen, and humor is everywhere in these stories, from the most subtle social critiques to a full measure of the most juvenile bathroom humor.

Tolkien, however, does not go there. When he isn't anesthetizing it in his translations, he is fully expurgating all sex, romance, bodily functions and humor from his fiction. Beyond this, he has written seemingly endless tomes populated by some of the flattest characters ever seen in serious 20th century writing. While the medieval originals made use of stock characters to fill many roles, the protagonists were typically quite rich, again, albeit with little or nothing hidden on the inside. What you see is what you get, but what we see in such authors as Wolfram is far more human than the emotionally stunted Tolkien.

If Tolkein's translations were doing such violence to the literature he modernized for other scholars, why did they rely on him at all then? It is important to realize here what the craft of textual preparation and translation was prior to the wide availability of computers. It was a wide open field for anyone to enter for many years, due to the mind-numbing tediousness of finding and judging textual variations in the available manuscripts, and in the rote mental chores of analyzing the original meanings of the language for translation into a more modern English. When someone like Tolkien came along, who could through his own extraordinary mental gifts produce a large quantity of texts in translation, few were able to challenge him and go and do a better job. Most who had the ability were, like Tolkien, hobbled by the same near-autistic inability to grasp the full range of human emotion and to read and write poetry as we would hope a translator could do.

The irony, of course, is that the tool given us by other functionally autistic geeks in another field, computers, changed all that. Now, textual analysis can be done at speeds unimaginable to dusty bookworm like Tolkien. Now, those whose minds encompass our experiences, whose lives hold a complete range of human joys and sorrows, and whose pens (or keyboards) can write words that can do justice to the English poetic tradition are able to enter the field and give us a true understanding of these brilliant works. Compare the warm and funny John Gardner to the cold and eunuch-like J.R.R. Tolkien to see the difference.

It is a difference not everyone is capable of appreciating, as testified by the ongoing popularity of Tolkien's fiction, even as his scholarly work grows ever more obscure. Where geeks squirm in their seats when reading the uproarious anus-kissing scene in Geoffrey Chaucer's Miller's Tale, or flinch at the rape scene in Chrètien de Troyes' Lancelot story the The Knight of the Cart, they sail smoothly through the passionless, sexless, joyless world of The Hobbit and the other Middle Earth tales, lingering over the tedious details of a character's costume and arms, drawing stark lines between good and evil that are hardly evident in real medieval romance, and reveling in the triumph of the child-like Hobbit mind over the dark complexities of the Tolkien villains.

The literature of the modern world's functional autistics is simplistic and two-dimensional, but it is nonetheless important, because these modern-day village idiots have been put to work building and maintaining the information systems that we take to be vital to our civilization. Dealing with them and their machines is a challenge we all must face, and we can better face it armed with understanding. What do these cute stories say about those who love them? Obsess over them, in fact. How does this obsession make itself known in the workings of modern technology?

This series will explore the role of functional autism in modern literature and in modern technologists. It will also take a detailed look at what it means to be functionally autistic, and how that is expressed through medievalist literature. If you are qualified to be reading Adequacy, I hope you'll stay around for the next installment.

Peace and joy to everyone in this season of the Christians' most expansive and extroverted holiday!

To be continued.

[1] Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, Newly translated and with an introduction by Burton Raffel. Mentor, New York. 1970.


Nice poll. (5.00 / 2) (#4)
by RobotSlave on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 07:06:51 PM PST
if we're going to look at English lit through the lens of its authors' emotional deficiencies (is this school of criticism still called "Freudian?"), I think I'll take Tolkein's autism over whatever was eating Burroughs and Howard. As a stylist, though, I'd say Tolkein rates the worst of the lot, excepting Bradley.


© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

 
the funny part (5.00 / 2) (#5)
by nathan on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 07:37:09 PM PST
Is when "Bradley" gets to be called by her last name.

"Oh, yes, I was listening to the satirical stylings of that scamp Mr. Mathers."

"My taste runs to Ms. Ciccone."

"Oh, how lovely! Do you enjoy art? This is an original Kinkade reproduction!"

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

An old trick. (none / 0) (#41)
by RobotSlave on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 11:28:31 AM PST
The New York Times used to be infamous for this sort of thing.

The music critic who reviewed Bat Out of Hell, without ever referring to the artist as anything other than "Mr. Loaf," ought to be given a medal.


© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

 
priorities (5.00 / 1) (#6)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 07:49:30 PM PST
You silly idiot!
I take it willingly to happily criticize empty and useless things like religion, society, underground culture, the States - that's just useless crap anyway...
But how do yuo <STRONG>DARE</STRONG> criticize Literature ! And the capital 'L' is not a mistake, just an emphasis on what a master writer and genius like Tolkien produced, compared to the horrid, meaningless, superficial and lifeless 'literature' you seem to appreciate...

OK, you do not have even the simplest forms of aesthetic and common sense needed to appreciate one of the XXth century fantasy masterpieces ? I pity you, but this doesn't allow you to write such offending and disgusting articles. Couldn't you please just stroll in a dark, misty corner and stay there - at least - forever ?

Thanks,
fwyzard :-)


You all see why we need a gated community? (4.00 / 2) (#9)
by elenchos on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 08:46:51 PM PST
This sort of comment is exactly the reason why I keep saying we need to permanently block all non-editors from either reading or posting at the Adequacy. This is a serious--even grave--discussion site, where only complete and well-documented arguments should be allowed. Instead we have to put up with this sort of noise comment, which makes bald criticisms and blanket generalizations yet offers no support or logical reasoning to support itself.

I realize that any defense of JRR Tolkien is virtually impossible to make using facts or logic, but that is exactly the reason we shouldn't allow posts like this.

Whose idea was it to allow "Anonymous Readers" to post, anyway?


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill


While I agree in theory, (4.00 / 2) (#14)
by Thon on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 10:29:14 PM PST
keeping geeks out of an internet site is about as easy as keeping herpes out of a sorority. You really have to treat each geek individually. However, their crafty nature has allowed them to take shelter behind the Anonymous Reader tag so that they can spew their autistic propaganda without fear of being further ostrasized.


"I undrestand"

Ahem... (5.00 / 1) (#26)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 03:11:18 AM PST
Shouldn't that be 'ostracized'?

Oh well. Either way it's a bastardization of 'ostrakos'.

In this site, I have also apparently stumbled upon a new way to think.


 
Ahh, elenchos... (4.00 / 1) (#29)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 04:33:46 AM PST
Always the most ham-handed of all the Adequacy.org editors. Can we set up some sort of donation fund to send him to a first-year rhetoric class?

First, there is this entire "functionally autistic" theme, which is a rather poorly done red herring. Oh, I'm sure he will "explore the role of functional autism in modern literature and in modern technologists" soon. Unless someone makes him take his lithium. Really, why would you title an article with a topic that you aren't even going to deal with?

Then there is his poor comprehension of middle english literature. Like that of modern times, it had a wide range of sensibilities. "The Miller's Tale" is really meant to be appreciated on two levels--one laughing at the crude humor, the other laughing at the Miller's crude attempts to enrage the carpenter. Sadly, I think elenchos is too apt to dive into the fray...

That admitededly ad hominem attatck aside, I challange elenchos to find one sexual or ribald line in any edition of "The Battle of Badon". "The Pearl" is also notably lacking in sexual tension. Admittedly, Tolkien limited himself by sticking to drier translations, but really, this entire article is so devoid of either logic or humor that it should be deleted wholesale in embarrasment.


Perhaps elenchos' editorship should be revoked. (5.00 / 1) (#42)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 06:19:09 PM PST
He has proven himself compleatly inadequate, the people at alt.fairs.renaissance ripped him to pieces within seconds of him promoting this article, for God's sake. He also lacks even a basic liberal education, going to a high-priced university will do you nothing if you spend your time in a drunken stupor and bribe the administration to finally get your degree after six years.

I don't know what was going through the heads of the real editors when they decided to promote elenchos into their exclusive club. It's time they reconsider their mistake, elenchos has only made Adequacy.org look like an ignorant mob of geek pseudointellectuals. No wonder Adequacy has such a bad reputation on most university campuses.


Aren't we being a little transparent? (none / 0) (#44)
by RobotSlave on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 07:58:46 PM PST
So you're mad because someone edited your comment. Big deal. Happens to everyone. You are now part of the adequacy. Suck it up.

This business of posting replies to your own comments in an attempt to make people think that you are legion is just completely pathetic.


© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

If only (none / 0) (#61)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 06:33:50 AM PST
So you're mad because someone edited your comment.

Editing a comment is the decent thing to do. However, what is unacceptable is to support enchelos. It should be quite clear by now that Adequacy sports a number of excellently informed 'geek' story writers, such as dmg, or seventypercent, and that elenchos's trite offerings are no longer required. Please make him write about 'real world' things (you know - like politics, economics, philosophy, relationships, religion... anything but another tepid kurodot rant) or have him shot. Please, won't somebody think of the children?


 
Adequacy has a reputation on campuses? (none / 0) (#49)
by Robert Reginald Rodriguez on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 01:04:57 AM PST
Which ones? I ask, because I can't imagine how you could have spoken to enough professors of different institutions to have accurately gauged the breadth and nature of Adequacy's reputation. Was the site featured in a recent issue of Lingua Franca, perhaps?


 
thought for elenchos (none / 0) (#50)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 05:36:34 AM PST
Perhaps you should cease spamming Usenet to generate hits for your articles.

You risk of having someone get annoyed enough to contact your ISP and ask them to drop you. (many ISP's have policies against spamming)

Plus its just the tackiest and most unsophisticated form of marketing ever invented.

Makes you look like a script kiddie with a mission,*G* as opposed to a high end intellectual type.


 
Re: Tea at the elitist pseudo-intellectual club (none / 0) (#31)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 05:28:47 AM PST
>>> This sort of comment is exactly the reason why I keep saying we need to permanently block all non-editors from either reading or posting at the Adequacy. <<<

Nonsense. When you can blithely remove and edit postings which dare disagree with you who needs a lock on the front door?

>>> This is a serious--even grave--discussion site, where only complete and well-documented arguments should be allowed. <<<

Hmmmm, I'll have to look around at something other than this thread to see if there are any postings here which actually qualify.

>>> Instead we have to put up with this sort of noise comment, which makes bald criticisms and blanket generalizations yet offers no support or logical reasoning to support itself. <<<

True... but don't be too hard on yourself. You may not be able to support your arguments in the face of the actual facts, but at least you gave it the old 'college try'. (Note for those who feel that sublety in literature is wasted: Observe the implied reference to that vital 'defecation' we just don't get enough of.)

- Conrad Dunkerson
"Even the Christmas vacation will be darkened by New Zealand scripts..." JRR Tolkien



 
why replies are neccesary & yer arguments wron (none / 0) (#45)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 08:29:45 PM PST
to begin with, open replying and criticsim to the articles on this site, as well as any site of similar type, is neccesary and advantageous because, while you are correct in your assesment of statements made more out blind passion, pigheadedness, and opinions held without the backing of logic, they are an acceptable price (no matter how numerous and how stupid they may be) for the unrestricted INTELLIGENT criticism from any intrested source that happens upon the article, and not just people of your like mindset, who would probably be the only ones you would let past your proposed gate on the site. besides, the stupid, uninformed replies kinda go with the stupid, uninformed articles that make up a sizeable portion of your content.
now as for your arguement, as best as i can tell, you seem to be trying to state some explanation for the popularity of fantasty authors (particulary tolkien (did i spell particualry right, me hate that word...)) among a group of people you label 'geeks'. to begin with you give no actual evidence that these 'geeks' show noteable intrest in such literature. you simply state it in such a way as if it were common, uncontested knowledge, which given the explosian of popularity of tolkiens work a few decades or so ago, an explosian which took no account of such a social\cultural designation as 'geek', it is not.
secondly your reason behind why said geeks like tolkien is that literature such as his (tolkien) fetures characters that lack the ability to seperate their thoughts and feelings from their physical state, hence they cannot help but act out their most pure and private emotions and motives out in the open. you do not identify any specific examples of this observation, again stating it as if it were common known and uncontested. you identify said behavior as autistic. hence your definition of autistic behavior is one who cannot seperate reality from from his thoughts and feelings. you state that the 'geeks' are all functionally and/or mildly autistic.
may i say here that from my expieriance, autism is a fairly uncommon mental condition, while a geek is a designation for a person, often derogatroy, who shares some of the intrests of other sterotypical groups such as dorks and nerds, that is they are the kids who get beaten by bullies, have the worst acne, dont get dates, are social outcasts, and hence tend to spend most of their time with computers, watching too much tv, etc.. the veracity of this sterotype is irrelevent, my point is that your very definition is in question.
but lets ignore that mislabeling, and assume we are just talking about autistics (especially mild/functional autistics), and that you merely called them geeks by mistake. well then, in that case your definition of autistic is wrong, dumbass. you talk about carefull research and critical integrity, but yet you obviously didnt check in a dictionary or you would have seen the same definions i found on dictionary.com and merriam-webster online, those being
au·tism (ôtzm)
n.
A psychiatric disorder of childhood characterized by marked deficits in communication and social interaction, preoccupation with fantasy, language impairment, and abnormal behavior, such as repetitive acts and excessive attachment to certain objects. It is usually associated with intellectual impairment.
Main Entry: au·tism
Pronunciation: 'o-"ti-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1912
1 : absorption in self-centered subjective mental activity (as daydreams, fantasies, delusions, and hallucinations) usually accompanied by marked withdrawal from reality
2 : a mental disorder originating in infancy that is characterized by self-absorption, inability to interact socially, repetitive behavior, and language dysfunction (as echolalia)
as you can see, not only do the definitions not say 'one who cannot seperate his thoughts and emotions from his physical interaction with the world and reality in general', they say something to the effect that these people wouldnt be interacting with the world very much at all, they would be withdrawn from it. hence your argument has no basis whatsoever, as your starting propositions, the statements that when considered should lead to the conclusion you have proposed, are either unbacked or flat out wrong. which is probably the real reason you dont want unrestricted posting on the site, ISNT IT???


you can't even analyse a dictionary, don't try lit (2.50 / 2) (#59)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 01:41:01 AM PST
n.
"A psychiatric disorder of childhood characterized by marked deficits in communication and social interaction," TOLKIEN: UNABLE TO COMMUNICATE REAL FEELINGS, CLOSED AWAY BOOKWORM "preoccupation with fantasy," 'NUFF SAID "language impairment," UNABLE TO CHARACTERIZE PASSION OR ACTION OR TRUE EMOTION EVEN IN MASSIVE TOMES SUCH AS HOBBIT "and abnormal behavior, such as repetitive acts and excessive attachment to certain objects." WRITES BOOKS THAT DRAG ON FOREVER GOIING NOWHERE FAST, EXCRUCIATING AND REPETITIVE DETAIL TO LITTLE UNIMPORTANT THINGS AND FOCUS ON WEIRD CREATURES AND OBJECTS (AND => BEHAVIOR) ESPECIALLY NOTE THE 'ATTACHMENT TO CERTAIN OBJECTS' AND THINK ABOUT THIS: 'A RING WITH THE POWER TO ENSLAVE THE UNIVERSE' AND A MAN WHO SPENT 17 YEARS WRITING ABOUT THAT WRING "It is usually associated with intellectual impairment." DUH! SEE ALL OF THE ABOVE!


 
Well, I am kinda offended... (none / 0) (#56)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 08:39:38 PM PST
Check my reply as "Sutut" on alt.fantasy.conan<br><br>

Am I less of a human being because I simply thought the "Ass Kissing" joke in Cantebury tales was dumb?<br><br>

I don't like Tolkien that much, but I do like one of his contemporaries, Lord Dunsany a lot. If it were up to me, there would be movies made from works like "The Sword of Welleran" and such.<br><br>

Frankly, I don't get how you think fantasy fiction is two-dimensional. Besides Dunsany, check into guys like Robert E. Howard, or Clark Ashton Smith.<br><br>

As far as the "Functional Autistic" goes, I heard Einstien routinely forgot where he lived. Also, Bobby Fischer has recently spoke out in FAVOR of the 9/11 attacks. It doesn't make me dislike Einstien, though I blame him for the Atom bomb's invention as much as Oppenheimer, nor do I respect Fischer's chess skills less.


I hope you didn't get that Einstein thing from... (none / 0) (#57)
by elenchos on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 10:43:22 PM PST
...Robert A. Heinlien. That's the last (and only) place I've seen someone trying to put the blame for the atomic bomb on him of all people. Please do not form historical opinions based on what a fictional character in a pulp novel says. Real life is way more sublte and complex.

Anyway, you are defending against a phantom.

I don't really think anyone should dig up Tolkien and abuse his corpse. Yes, he wrote some bad books and many people read them and enjoyed them. There's no harm in that. And there is no harm in liking bad books. Cheap entertainment is fun and we all enjoy it a little.

It isn't even a crime to argue that fantasy fiction is not two-dimensional. Go ahead and say that. I just think you have a tough case to make, that's all. Someone tried to show Tolkien's artistry by posting some of his poetry. Yes, it was proven that Tolkien wrote poetry. But no, nobody was convinced that Tolkien was a good poet. If anything, the poor man's reputation suffered another wound at the hands of his loyal fan.

So give it a shot, if you must, but whether you want to take the case of Howard or Dunsany or whomever, you are going to really have to put together some impressive evidence if you want to drag any of this fiction out of the fantasy genre ghetto and into the neighborhood of serious literature. Best of luck.

What I'm interested in is the psychology of those who write this kind of stuff so consistently. And the psychology of those who read it to the exclusion of anything of real substance, and further, why are such people so over-represented in the technology field? We have people with limited social skills and an undeveloped emotional life who are engrossed in stories where humanity is flattened into a much less challenging characature of itself. What is going on here? What are the specific mechanisms behind this kind of genre fiction that make it so comfortable for this type of person?

I don't say that these people should be criminlized, or even ridiculed. I simply remark on their existence, and attempt to describe them truthfully. I seek to understand them.

Sorry that I offend you, but the demands of truthfulness leave me no choice. Obviously, this kind of thing cannot be discussed at a Conan fan usenet group. That is why Adequacy.org, the web's most controversial news and discussion site, is here. That is why I am at Adequacy.org, to do this important investigation.

And you? Thanks for posting here, but remember: just because you are offended, that is no reason to try to silence the site. Please do not DoS the Adequacy.org. Thank you.


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill


 
An article every Tolkien worshipper should read (5.00 / 3) (#8)
by moriveth on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 08:36:42 PM PST
Thank you for challenging the nauseating worship of that work of astounding banality, the Lord of the Rings. As anyone who has read Tolkien's "poetry" (or even his prose) can attest, Tolkien was not a genius: he was a tin-eared hack.

Far from being a work of literary genius, discriminating fantasy readers recognize that Tolkien was a dead end, a mere sideshow of the great tradition defined by true masters such as Lord Dunsany, Fritz Leiber, and Terry Goodkind. It is something of a tragedy that it is Tolkien's aggressively mediocre tomes that have instead made it to the silver screen.


How's the lineup? (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 10:27:32 PM PST
Did you write that from your laptop, waiting in line for tickets to the Lord Of The Rings? Is it cold out tonite?


 
Terry Goodkind? Please. He's crap. (none / 0) (#27)
by Calenth on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 03:15:07 AM PST
Lord Dunsany, I'll grant. Fritz Leiber has some strengths. but. . .geesh . .Terry Goodkind ? Terry Goodkind didn't even steal from great writers -- his books are a loose crib-sheet from Lucas and Robert Jordan. His work is abysmally poor, unoriginal,and contains almost nothing of creative merit.


stop living in the past (5.00 / 1) (#55)
by philipm on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 04:21:08 PM PST
Please stop living in the past. I have no idea who this Dunsany is, but lord? LORD???????????
Leiber is another dry scribbler, not nearly as horrible as tolkien, but still barely able to string two words together.
Terry, on the other hand, really is a genius. His passionate violence tinged sexuality and sexually charged violence (ummmm mord sith.... drool...) is a breakthgrough in the good-evil obsessed wall of label spouting retards.
One is unbearably grateful that you are practically the only person that can not appreciate terry.


--philipm

Gor (none / 0) (#131)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Dec 20th, 2001 at 07:19:02 AM PST
I think Gor is even better for mind-numbing titillation.


 
Vulgar [...] (5.00 / 1) (#12)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 09:46:09 PM PST
[editor's note by elenchos: The original inflammatory language of this post was removed for improved readability. The substance of the post is unchanged.]

So much for the supposed [...] policy of this site. The above article could hardly be called anything [...] - especially when the author then went out to various Tolkien fan sites to post links to it while explaining that;

"It is at adequacy.org, which is a specialist discussion site, meaning that most "Tolkien fans" are not qualified to post comments in the discussion, due to the level of experience and education required."

[...] . That said, it is also quite spectacularly inaccurate in a number of places;

>>> Tolkien is well-known as the author of The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and it is popularly understood that he was a competent scholar of some kind. In fact, this popular perception is close to the truth, as Tolkien was a top medievalist, whose translation of such vital works as Sir Gawain and the Green Knight were accepted as standards for decades. <<< <P> Whatever one thinks of Tolkien's 'style' of literary analysis the claim that it is merely "close to the truth" that he was a "competent scholar of some kind" is simply pretentious. He was an Oxford professor of great experience who was a noted scholar during and after his lifetime. Engage in all the revisionist interpretation you like (and there is a great deal here indeed), but try not to be condescending about falsities in the process.

>>> In Tolkien's creative fiction, the lack of jokes and sex is not in any way due to his use of medieval motifs and settings. <<< <P> While Tolkien certainly did not concentrate on sexuality in his stories the charge that there was some lack of jokes betrays that the writer has either not read the stories or at some point has had their sense of humor surgically removed. The Hobbit is after all, largely a comedy... and in the case of 'Farmer Giles of Ham' there is no 'largely' about it. The entire piece is plainly comedic.

>>> Tolkien, however, does not go there. When he isn't anesthetizing it in his translations, he is fully expurgating all sex, romance, bodily functions and humor from his fiction. <<< <P> Somehow I've never quite felt the lack of bodily functions in ANY of the works I've read... though now that it is mentioned that DOES seem to be an aspect distressingly absent in a great many texts. By all means then - let us have more defecation. (Oi!)

As to romance... do the names of Eowyn and Faramir mean anything to you? Beren and Luthien? Tolkien has not 'expurgated romance' by any reasonable definition of the term. He was quite thoroughly a romantic thinker and writer - to the extent that the names 'Beren' and 'Luthien' appear on the tombstones of himself and his wife.

Again, an overt hostility to Tolkien's work seems to be leading to the establishment of 'facts' which are nothing of the kind. If Tolkien is so incapable of humor where then did 'Farmer Giles' come from? Or hadn't you read it? Or must we have the rape and "anus-kissing" you extolled so eloquently in order for it to qualify as 'humor'?

>>> If Tolkein's translations were doing such violence to the literature he modernized for other scholars, why did they rely on him at all then? It is important to realize here what the craft of textual preparation and translation was prior to the wide availability of computers. It was a wide open field for anyone to enter for many years, due to the mind-numbing tediousness of finding and judging textual variations in the available manuscripts, and in the rote mental chores of analyzing the original meanings of the language for translation into a more modern English. When someone like Tolkien came along, who could through his own extraordinary mental gifts produce a large quantity of texts in translation, few were able to challenge him and go and do a better job. <<< <P> Ye gods! Tolkien was INFAMOUS for his inability to stick to and finish a project. He was originally scheduled to do a major part of the work on the Jerusalem Bible, but wound up completing only Jonah. Lord of the Rings itself took him more than 17 YEARS to write. His primary the text, 'The Silmarillion', was begun earlier and never completed at all. The idea that Tolkien achieved prominence as a scholar through the production of vast quantities of dreck is absurd on its face. He was NOT remotely workmanlike or prolific in his studies, instead going over things in exacting and repetitious detail... until distracted onto some other long overdue project. Honestly, where are you getting this stuff?

>>> Most who had the ability were, like Tolkien, hobbled by the same near-autistic inability to grasp the full range of human emotion and to read and write poetry as we would hope a translator could do. <<< <P> Need I even bother to point out that Tolkien wrote extensive amounts of poetry?

There was a man who dwelt alone,
as day and night went past
he sat as still as carven stone,
and yet no shadow cast.
The white owls perched upon his head
beneath the winter moon;
they wiped their beaks and thought him dead
under the stars of June.

There came a lady clad in grey
in the twilight shining:
one moment she would stand and stay,
her hair with flowers entwining.
He woke, as he had sprung of stone,
and broke the spell that bound him;
he clasped her fast, both flesh and bone,
and wrapped her shadow round him.

There never more she walks her ways
by sun or moon or star;
she dwells below where neither days
nor any nights there are.
But once a year when caverns yawn
and hidden things awake,
they dance together then till dawn
and a single shadow make.

-Shadow Bride, JRR Tolkien ('emotionless autistic geek with an aversion to poetry, sex and romance')

Please forgive me for finding you absurd.

- Conrad Dunkerson ('inadequate Tolkien reader')


The poem really speaks for itself, doesn't it? (5.00 / 1) (#19)
by elenchos on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 12:29:52 AM PST
I would challenge you to provide support for your statement that I don't give Tolkien enough credit as a scholar. Yes he was an Oxford prof. I called him a "top medievalist". Nonetheless, he is not in the same league as Raffel, nor John Gardner, nor any of the host of world-class poet-translators of the 20th century, like WS Merwin or Robert Pinsky. Tolkien's translations were serviceable back when that was all we had, but he has been surpassed by artists who have much more to offer than a typical Oxford professor with a knack for languages.

Or can you provide me with the names serious, current, peer-reviewed work that still rely on Tolkien? I don't mean fanzines.

You are a little anachronistic in your assertion that Tolkien worked slowly, probably because you have a computer-age vision of how his work proceeded. You could not simply search a whole book for a word, and then repeat the same search in another version of that text and compare them in context by pressing the "search" key. Textual analysis meant going through line by line, with just your own eyes. It did take years and Tolkien's output was exceptional. But ever since computers appeared on university campuses in the 50's and 60's, Tolkien's handful of translations did start to look like the work of a plodder. Anachronism abounds it seems.

That he became sidetracked and left unfinished projects lying about while he chased odd leads is typical geek behavior. Compare the infamous Donald Knuth TeX episode, for example.

Tolkein's fear of sex and passion is undeniable. His medieval models had remarkable amounts of vulgarity by our standards. His version of medievalism draws attention to this by its conspicuous absence. Compare that with the original stories' sometimes tedious descriptions of the details of armor and clothing that the characters wore. Tolkien liked that aspect of medieval writing, and kept it. He even expanded on it, ad nausauem. But he didn't like the fart jokes and the fornication, so his version of the medieval world washes all that away. The problem is that all that vulgarity in the original texts also contained some meaning, as skilled poet-translators have demonstrated, to Tolkien's shame.

So he took stories written for an audience that spent their lives in single-room houses where every conceivable human activity took place in the physical presence of entire extended families, and Victorianized them because he wasn't comfortable with that aspect of the medieval period. In many ways, Tolkien was more like Tennyson or Dante Gabriel Rossetti than Malory or the Gawain Poet.

Speaking of poetry, what can we make of the thing with the lady clad in gray in the twilight shining? Nice regular rhyme scheme, I'll say that. Does it really make you think the poet has much experience with the textures of human passion? It seems to cast a love story far in the past, and put the man an woman in great distance from each other. The woman is quite a mystery to him, it seems. She appears out of nowhere, and does something magical, we guess. The result is that the isolated man experiences something strange and wonderful, but how much is the poet really saying about it? How much can he say? Does this couple have sex, for example? Is that what Tolkien is hinting at? Maybe.

I'd call it pretty vague and mushy poetry, overall. Compare, for example a Tolkien near-contemporary like Theodore Roethke: "I knew a woman, lovely in her bones/ When small birds sighed, she would sigh back at them;/ Ah, when she moved, she moved more ways than one:/ the shapes a bright container can contain!" Tolkien just lacks the mastery of expression that even a middle-grade poet like Roethke has.

And ask yourself how someone who living in the 20th century and inheriting the dozen centuries of English literature that Tolkien had at his disposal could have so little wisdom to offer. Tolkien understood as much about love as a schoolboy. Compare him with a man that knew a thing or two, and could write it well, like Philip Larkin in "Talking in Bed", 1964.:

Talking in bed ought to be easiest,
Lying together there goes back so far,
An emblem of two people being honest.

Yet more and more time passes silently.
Outside, the wind's incomplete unrest
Builds and disperses clouds about the sky,

And dark towns heap up on the horizon.
None of this cares for us. Nothing shows why
At this unique distance from isolation

It becomes still more difficult to find
Words at once true and kind,
Or not untrue and not unkind.


I'm being as kind as I can towards Tolkien, but it is only so far that one can stretch the truth.


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill


serious, peer-reviewed work (none / 0) (#24)
by Calenth on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 02:15:03 AM PST
Do you mean just his translations, or his analysis? Tolkien's Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics remains the single, seminal, primary point from which all later analysis of Beowulf, and even re-interpretations and restructurings like John Gardner's Grendel, draw their ultimate inspiration. So, yes, that's an obvious example of one of Tolkien's scholarly works that still influences peer-reviewed, current analysis of old english literature.


 
Literary criticism (none / 0) (#25)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 02:49:59 AM PST
An interesting article.

Surely all literary criticism becomes outdated eventually? This happens in all fields and in all subjects as new research is done and replaces the old school of thought. Is it therefore right to criticise Tolkien because what was commonly believed in the 50s and 60s is no longer valid? For his era Tolkien was an eminent scholar; I notice Beowulf was cited below - in the article you concentrate on Gawain and avoid the subject of Beowulf - understandable if you're comparing two translations of Gawain, but not if you're arguing that Tolkien is outdated and 'autistic'.

I do however object to the fact that you called 'all' Tolkien fans 'autistic geeks'. As well as being a keen lover of Tolkien, I'm currently in my final year studying French at Oxford where I'm always busy. Tolkien is at once an escape from academic life and a link to it; the languages he created and the history he touched upon in his own mythology show clear links to the culture surrounding the medieval texts I've studied.

Finally, Tolkien may have avoided the kind of romance we are used to today, but to say that his texts are devoid of romance is clearly misled. Take the tale of Aragorn and Arwen in 'The Lord of the Rings', for example. A king in exile in love with an immortal woman who cannot marry him until he regains his crown and must then give up her immortality for love of him - is this not romantic in all the pure sense of the word? Why is this less romantic than the tale of Romeo and Juliet, or the doomed affair of Tristan and Isolde? Do we need explicit sex in a book? It certainly would not 'work' in the context of the tale. In addition, LOTR deals with unrequited love, and the simple love found through companionship (Faramir and Eowyn). LOTR is a romance in the good old heroic sense of the word. It brings me and many other people pleasure and I think denegrating us to the status of 'geeks' is at the least a narrow-minded view.

Joanne Harris.


stop calling bullshit romance (none / 0) (#43)
by philipm on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 07:31:39 PM PST
tolkien was a small minded detail obsessed freak who has been linized by people to nervous and withdrawn to read more than one book. Onyone who has read and science fiction and fantasy in the last 15 years has no problems with burning tolkien's books and repeatedly running over him with a car.

Have you ever actually had any romance in your life? I hope you are not using this passionless drivel for a guide.


--philipm

You are completely correct. (none / 0) (#47)
by tkatchev on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 12:26:58 AM PST
Tolkien's works are neither science-fiction nor fantasy, and they are in no way related. Tolkien is strictly a writer of Christian apoligia; some may not agree with the methods he uses and the issues he brings up, but the prodominately Catholic nature of his writings is obvious[1]. Tolkien is much closer in style and content to C.S. Lewis -- surely you don't claim that "Cronicles of Narnia" are a sci-fi series?!

In fact, science fiction necessarily implies atheism and sexual perversity on the part of the writer. In fact, those two issues are probably the two most important distinguishing characteristics of sci-fi as a genre. Since Tolkien was neither an atheist nor a pervert, you cannot seriously claim that he wrote sci-fi or fantasy.

[1] It's a sad state we are in, when people cannot even recognize Catholic literature when they read it.


--
Peace and much love...




Tolkien's religion (none / 0) (#62)
by frosty on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 11:10:29 AM PST
Yes Tolkien was a Catholic, yes he wrote his books from that framework, and yes his books are consistent with "christian" thinking. However, these books should not be compared to the works of C.S. Lewis in style. Lewis's work was Christian allegory, written to primarily communicate religious concepts. Tolkien's work, on the other hand, while consistent w/ Catholic ideas, was not written to communicate similar ideas.

Personally I have a hard time finding any strong and consistent allegories in his Trilogy. There is Good vs. Evil, the corruption of Power, etc. However, the presence of Catholic/Christian themes does not make a book "catholic" per se. The books are definately influenced by Tolkien's religious beliefs, but to compare his style with thatof Lewis is quite a stretch.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger" -J.R.R. Tolkien

History lesson. (none / 0) (#65)
by tkatchev on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 02:14:25 PM PST
C.S.Lewis converted to Christianity solely by the urging of Tolkien. For all intents and purposes, Lewis is Tolkien's spiritual "child" -- for a large of his life, Lewis was a dedicated agnostic; however, at one point his conversations with Tolkien caused Lewis to convert to Christianity.

As for Christian themes and ideas, they are on every page of LOTR. Just because Tolkien doesn't beat you over the head with them, and you are too dense to see them, doesn't mean that they are not there. I won't list these things here -- if you really want a thorough analysis, pick anything from the book, and I'll do my best to explain the Christian significance of it.

However, I'll just leave you one tidbit to think about: compare the ascendance of Frodo to Mt. Doom and the last days of Christ's life. Again, Tolkien didn't write an allegory or a retelling, he simply rephrased pre-Christian salvation prophesies in an Anglo-Saxon manner; however, to deny the Christian nature of that subplot is completely ludicrous.


--
Peace and much love...




 
pervert? (none / 0) (#69)
by philipm on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 05:39:24 PM PST
Well, I have doubts about your ridiculous claim that Tolkien was not a pervert, but why do you think that atheism and perversion are necessary ingredients to writing science fiction? And what about fantasy, do you lump that in the same category?


--philipm

 
Passionless drivel? (none / 0) (#52)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 02:11:20 PM PST
Of course it's not a guide - did I say it was? Did I say I read just Tolkien? And are you seriously trying to suggest that more recent sci-fi and fantasy are of a higher quality than Tolkien's works? Some of it is equal, admitted. A lot of it is excellent. But it's also completely different to Tolkien.

I am neither nervous nor withdrawn. I think burning ANY book is a crime - though some books should be locked away where nobody can read them. And may I suggest that if you think Tolkien's romance is passionless, you read the tale Of Beren and Lúthien in The Silmarillion. It might be couched in very formal language, but it tells of a love transcending barriers. It's not a guide for anyone and least of all me, but it is a lyrical, beautiful piece of writing and if I'm reading romance (which is innately fiction - the French word 'roman' which means in today's language 'novel' has developed from a 12th century word, when it meant the tale of an imaginary or idealised hero) it's a nice dream world to escape into. If I want realism I'll read a modern author.

J.H.


Fiction is not an excuse... (none / 0) (#53)
by elenchos on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 03:19:31 PM PST
...for writing crap. No one buys this standard Tolkien defense, that he is writing "fantasy" or "romance" or whatever label you want, and therefore we can't criticize his glaring defects. Yes, everyone knows it is not realism. But that in no way means that dull, shallow, tedious, infantile stories can be called serious literature just because it is covered by that "fiction" label.

Yes there is some lyricism, there is some attempt at beauty. The point is that it is just not as good as Tolkien fans try to pass it off as. It may be very beautiful and poetic compared with similar pulp fiction, but that isn't saying much.


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill


 
please, once more with feeling! (none / 0) (#54)
by philipm on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 04:12:54 PM PST
Joanne, you need to come out of the closet. Your dull life as a closet homosexual can not be allowed to continue. You need to talk to wymynyst (found on this site) to realize what angry passion is missing in your life. No more hiding in the closet and licking secret salt licks for you. Be a woman, for man's sake!

I repeat, have you ever read any modern sci-fi? If you had, you would not be so intent on lionizing a midless scribbler with his pathological catholic distaste of humanity. For god's sake, stop being religious!


--philipm

A question (none / 0) (#63)
by hauntedattics on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 11:21:56 AM PST
Do you actually drool on the keyboard as you type?

Just wondering.


are you a lezbo? (2.50 / 2) (#66)
by philipm on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 03:35:29 PM PST
can I sniff your fingers?


--philipm

 
keep dreaming (none / 0) (#68)
by philipm on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 05:15:47 PM PST
yeah, keep on dreaming.
Don't expect me to participate in your liberal fantasy.
Next thing you know I'll be OOG the caveman and hit you over the head with my l..club... and make a woman of you.


--philipm

Jesus... (none / 0) (#86)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Dec 14th, 2001 at 05:05:54 PM PST
...what an arse. You can't participate in reality, it seems, let alone a liberal fantasy.

Lezbo!? What closet have you been hiding in? I don't think I've heard that word since my school playground.

Or as we say in China - 'Zhen ta ma de bi' Wei Youdun


 
Re: 'The Joy of Farting' (none / 0) (#30)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 05:13:48 AM PST
>>> I would challenge you to provide support for your statement that I don't give Tolkien enough credit as a scholar. <<<

In addition to his famed Beowulf commentary, which has already been mentioned, the fact is that Tolkien remains the bar by which all translators of Sir Gawain measure themselves. That is clear in your quotations from Raffel's recent text. You imply that it has become the new standard, but in fact it has only just come out and has not yet been subjected to any serious analysis. There are also Tolkien's essays 'Tree and Leaf', 'On Fairy Stories', 'English and Welsh', and any number of others which are still well regarded in the various scholarly fields Tolkien participated in. His work on the Jerusalem Bible, cursory though it was, is also still praised. Considering the >decades< of determined effort by revisionists and deconstructionists with a vested interest in tearing the man down the fact that these works remain quite well regarded by the actual experts in the fields should be enough to earn something more than an 'it is almost true that he was a semi-competent scholar' from any REMOTELY impartial critic.

>>> Or can you provide me with the names serious, current, peer-reviewed work that still rely on Tolkien? <<<

Start with Raffel. Go on to every decent translation or commentary on Beowulf or Gawain published since Tolkien. We could proceed from there to linguistic circles, but your interest (or experience) seems limited to Tolkien's literary side. The fact that he was renowned in at least three markedly different fields of scholarship somehow still not earning him recognition as at least somewhat 'adequate'.

>>> You are a little anachronistic in your assertion that Tolkien worked slowly, probably because you have a computer-age vision of how his work proceeded. <<<

Ha!

I said that he was infamous for his slow work and I meant it. Amongst his CONTEMPORARIES! They could not have been moved to anachronism by the speed of computer-age vision... they'd never experienced it, but they were quite aware that Tolkien produced material remarkably slowly.

>>> That he became sidetracked and left unfinished projects lying about while he chased odd leads is typical geek behavior. <<<

It seems that either his remarkable speed or incredible slowness will prove Tolkien's status as 'typical autistic geek'. I should have foreseen this inevitability to your 'logic'.

>>> Tolkein's fear of sex and passion is undeniable. <<<

And yet what courage the man must have had! To somehow produce FOUR children in spite of it all!

>>> Compare that with the original stories' sometimes tedious descriptions of the details of armor and clothing that the characters wore. <<<

Please cite even ONE example. This is a major aspect of his work, worthy of repeated criticism (you mentioned it in the first posting as well). No doubt the books ABOUND with such excessive descriptions of attire. Though in apparent contradiction there IS;

In response to a reader question about what style of clothing was worn in Middle-Earth;
"I do not know the detail of clothing. I visualize with great clarity and detail scenery and 'natural' objects, but not artefacts."
Letters of JRR Tolkien #211

So again, if you aren't just COMPLETELY making this up as you go along - please, some example of description of clothing more involved than 'His shirt was brown.'?

>>> But he didn't like the fart jokes and the fornication, so his version of the medieval world washes all that away. <<<

"The Rohirrim were not 'mediaeval', in our sense."
Same letter quoted above.

In 'The Hobbit' and 'Lord of the Rings' Tolkien was not creating a 'medieval world' and thus was not 'washing away' anything if he did not include elements you think essential in a world which >was< medieval.

As to the horrible lack in his translation of Sir Gawain - by all means, we need more "fart jokes" and "fornication" to go with our beloved defecation, rape and "anus-kissing". Tolkien has certainly robbed us of the true joys of the human condition.

>>> Speaking of poetry, what can we make of the thing with the lady clad in gray in the twilight shining? Nice regular rhyme scheme, I'll say that. Does it really make you think the poet has much experience with the textures of human passion? <<<

You'll forgive me if I was somewhat at pains to find a suitably short Tolkien poem dealing with romance and sex. I thought the charge was that he was 'incapable' of even thinking of such things. Now it seems to be that he does not 'clearly express' deep experience with the textures of human passion?

>>> She appears out of nowhere, and does something magical, we guess. The result is that the isolated man experiences something strange and wonderful, but how much is the poet really saying about it? How much can he say? Does this couple have sex, for example? Is that what Tolkien is hinting at? Maybe. <<<

Quite right. He should have beaten us about the head with it. None of this mystery and subtlety! That's not what romance is about. Who could possibly be expected to guess that the "magical" thing the woman does which the man finds such a "strange and wonderful" experience might be SEX without a little "anus-kissing" to clarify the matter. Yeesh! The nerve of the man!

>>> Tolkien just lacks the mastery of expression that even a middle-grade poet like Roethke has. <<<

I will grant you that Tolkien was not a master poet. Some of his poems are however quite good, and it was certainly absurd for you to claim that he was incapable of understanding poetry, romance or sex.

>>> I'm being as kind as I can towards Tolkien, but it is only so far that one can stretch the truth. <<<

Nonsense. You are certainly stretching the truth as far as it will bear (and a good bit beyond), but not in Tolkien's favor. Not when you invent objections which are clearly false (e.g. the nonexistant excessive detail of clothing) and continuously revise your argument in search of some 'sins' which might actually have merit - thus far we seem to have confirmed that Tolkien had insufficient crude humor, was not a master poet, and didn't write about sex constantly and explicitly. What shame and ignominy!


P.S. Thank you for returning my post to the server. I'd almost take back some of the unkind things I said about you except that I know a number of other postings have also disappeared. As to the 'inflammatory language' of my original text... you MUST be joking? This from the man who relegated Tolkien fans to the status of 'eunuch like autistic geeks' and then sought them out on fan sites to share this revelation with them for their edification though they would lack the 'education and experience' to comment upon it? There is a common 'discussion group' term clearly applicable to such actions. I used it. That was the 'inflammatory language' you removed. I stand by it.

- Conrad Dunkerson



Give elenchos a break. (none / 0) (#37)
by tkatchev on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 09:57:24 AM PST
As a liberalist child of the "enlightened" age, all of his existence eventually short-circuits on Freud's anal fantasies. Go easy on him.


--
Peace and much love...




 
One question: (2.00 / 1) (#15)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 10:30:18 PM PST
How can a dead author be considered modern?


An answer: (none / 0) (#16)
by elenchos on Mon Dec 10th, 2001 at 11:05:36 PM PST
Ccmpare: modern, contemporary and living.

There are those who would say modernity begins with Plutarch, while others say Shakespeare, and others Montaigne. By different criteria, the modern age starts in the Industrial Revolution, and coincides with Marx, for example. Others choose Freud as the "first modern". Again, it all depends on what you mean by "modern". It rarely is meant to be restricted only to the presently living, especially in regards to an author.

By any standard, Tolkien is a modern author, even if he mixed attitudes from Victorianism with Early Medievalism. Perhaps it is that ill-conceived juxtaposition that most makes him modern, eh?


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill


 
Ask Sonny Bono (none / 0) (#103)
by Pinocchio Poppins on Sun Dec 16th, 2001 at 10:47:26 AM PST
Note: I consider "modern" to mean "first published on or after January 1, 1923." (Read More...)

How can a dead author be considered modern?

Ask (the estate of) Sonny Bono. He was behind a bill that effectively made copyright perpetual by extending it 20 years every 20 years. Of course, Di$ney's contribution of $6m of soft money to both Republicratic parties to get the bill passed didn't hurt.

Vote Libertarian. Vote Green. Heck, <godwin>vote Libertarian National Socialist Green</godwin>. Anything but Republicrat.

--
Pinocchio

 
I take offense. (4.50 / 2) (#20)
by tkatchev on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 01:32:41 AM PST
Tolkien was a Catholic writer, down to the marrow of his bones; in modern times, he would be called a religious fanatic.

Autism has nothing to do with his writings -- you are confusing Catholic ethical and social mores with autism. I understand that in the U.S. you are not too familiar with Catholic culture, but to any European person the Catholic background in Tolkien's writings is very obvious.

P.S. Tolkien had a Catholic wife, with the typically large number of children.


--
Peace and much love...




Yes, but just to clarify... (none / 0) (#32)
by hauntedattics on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 06:44:46 AM PST
I agree with your assessment of Tolkien as a Catholic writer instead of an autistic one. Just one note - Tolkien's wife, Edith, was actually an Anglican and it took him quite awhile to reconcile this with his own faith and to gain approval for his marriage from family and religious mentors. I can't remember whether his wife converted or not.

Tolkien's mother was Catholic and his father was Anglican. According to Humphrey Carter's biography, one of the reasons for Tolkien's early attachment to Catholicism was his perception that his paternal relatives treated his young, widowed mother very badly, even as she herself was dying. It's a very interesting biography.

One more thought - for 'autism' read 'upbringing', 'culture' and 'personality'? Hmm...


 
Missing the point? (5.00 / 1) (#22)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Dec 11th, 2001 at 01:40:18 AM PST
While I understand the motivation behind this topic, and there is no denying the lack of sex and like aspects of normal human experience in Tolkien's work, I think that perhaps there is something wrong with criticising the works based on that fact.

I never really assumed (and I don't know why anyone would) that the Lord of the Rings was meant to convey a well-rounded human experience. It is fantasy after all, and there are many (great and not-so-great) works of fantasy that emphasize some aspects of human experience over others. Tolkien's work is a collected mythology of a fictitious world, his own world to shape and define, including and ignoring whatever he wants from the conventional human experience of "the" world. It's standard literary technique to skew a concept in various directions away from its real-world form in order to say something about the original concept. Few would attack Jane Austen for her wooden and (in my opinion, and yes I've read them) infuriatingly boring characters. She is praised for them. Tolkien's world (or the parts he was able to write down) may not be a good representation of all of human nature, but why should they be? I have no idea.

An autistic world == bad?? Sigh.

That brings me to the accusation that Tolkien writes autistically. Should this even be a criticism? Autism exists in many forms and extents throughout the world's popu