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Poll
Worst result of hobbyist programming:
Unbreakable encryption for terrorists. 9%
Pirated copies of Microsoft Windows and Office. 7%
The Code Red Worm. 16%
Emacs. 32%
Lunix. 12%
Back Orifice. 5%
The DoS attack on Adequacy.org. 10%
MP3s and Napster. 4%

Votes: 185

 Enough already! Ban programming.

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Oct 11, 2001
 Comments:
Programming computers is, for practically everyone, something done far away in exotic software engineering facilities by a priesthood of ultra-specialized, half-mad obsessive-compulsives. This is as it should be, and it is where we get the software we use every day to do our online banking, send email, and get productive work done. Though few normal people have any experience of it, or know anyone who does it, there is another kind of programming performed outside this legitimate sphere, one that you probably assumed was illegal, but shockingly, is not.

This other kind of programming also affects us every day, but negatively, as a continuous series of massive disruptions to the worldwide economy in the form of viruses, in the form of important and useful computer services being sabotaged with denial-of-service, in the form of defacement attacks, and in the form of substantially higher prices for all sorts of intellectual property such as software, DVD movies and music on CD, all due to piracy. I'm talking about "hacking" of course. It is the evil dark side to all the good that computers have brought us, and we are all sick of it. The time has come to put a stop to "hacking", because we can no longer tolerate the damage "hackers" cause, and the potential risk of terrorism when, not if, "hackers" go to work for such forces of mayhem as have begun an onslaught of terror against not just the United States, but Western Civilization's freedom to be loose and decadent in general.

ip_theft

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For a time, our society tolerated "hackers" because they promised that something useful would come of their shady and secretive tinkering. Yet we have had nothing but a harvest of bitter fruit from "hackers", and it is now time to pull the plug. It is time to ban all unlicensed computer programming, and take steps to ensure that no one outside of government, select universities, and state-sanctioned private-sector corporate software engineering facilities is given the knowledge, skills, or means to write or compile computer code of any kind. Amateur or hobbyist computer programming has grown from a minor annoyance to a major social disease, and it simply can no longer be tolerated.

Although ordinary decent people will find this suggestion to be obvious to the point of banality -- in fact, I'm sure many of you are surprised that amateur computer programming was ever legal! -- many of those who associate themselves with the "hacker community" will bridle at the suggestion. Strictly as an exercise, it would perhaps be diverting to entertain some of their more obvious objections.

The first cry in defense of hobbyists toying with this dangerous technology is that hackers have already proven their worth by producing a valuable piece of software -- namely, the Apache web server. Others would even claim that more than one useful program has been written in the garages and and lonely bedrooms of hobbyists. There are two delusions at work here.

One of these delusions is that any of the Open Source applications that have found some utility in business and industry were written by amateurs. The truth is that Apache began it's life as the work of professional coders employed by Amazon.com, and as any software engineer you want to ask can tell you, nothing of value was added by anyone but professionals. In truth, the work of the gainfully employed programmers on this project was often interrupted and even sabotaged by the ham-fisted meddling of the teenage wanna-be's and self-styled "gurus" who have accumulated around professional Open Source projects like so many leeches and barnacles. This episode alone demonstrates that if there is anything good to come out of Open Source methodology, it will only be helped along by the removal of dilettantes from the picture. Indeed, once the "hackers" have been outlawed, Open Source will very likely reach new heights of utility and quality, and perhaps even fulfill the promise of greatness that Open Source advocates have been making for years.

The other delusion, or I should say piece of misinformation, that has been perpetrated by "hackers" is that there are many other "tools" that have been created by hackers and gifted to a grateful world by our benevolent hobbyists. What about Emacs, for example? What about it? Emacs was originally created at MIT, a trusted part of the US military research establishment. Obviously, such facilities and their (suitably cleared) employees will never be banned. The time has come to ban the reckless tourists from the programming field, not legitimate university researchers. It is true that Emacs, and similar tools have subsequently been "enhanced" by "hackers". Generally, we have seen a pattern of mind-boggling feature creep and software bloat as a result of this. Emacs, for all its admirers, is the worst known example of this. In addition, all of the "functionality" that has been added to Emacs, or other "tools" touted by free software hackers such as Flex, Bison, gcc, etc. are hacker's tools. That means that they are like lock picks or zip guns. They have no inherent functionality that is not ultimately malevolent and illegal in its purpose. This is not utility or service. This is disservice.

The reason that hobbyists work so feverishly hard on creating this kind of tool is precisely because they are locked out of the world of the normal, decent software engineer, where professional-grade IDEs, debuggers, and similar tools are abundant. Those with ultimately criminal intent must cobble together their own weapons. There are dozens, even hundreds of these types of destructive programs in circulation, such as those mentioned, as well as the notorious "Back Orifice", or the hacker operating system, "Lunix". While a "hacker" could disingenuously and spuriously argue that each one of these various illegal programs has some redeeming social value, it is clear that taken as a whole, such "warez" do not in fact benefit anyone except "hackers" and other criminals.

Rather than waste any more time tediously demonstrating this fact for each of these "hacker's" tools, it would be best to move on to the other canard that "hackers" raise in defense of their "freedom" to "hack". And that would be freedom itself. Is there a right to "hack"? Well, of course there most certainly is not. Is there a right to build atomic bombs or breed anthrax bacilli in one's back yard? Is there a right to spy on your government and pass on that information to our foreign enemies, merely because you have chosen espionage as a "hobby"? Perhaps you could claim that your interest in espionage is driven by an innate curiosity, a desire to discover new things and understand how the world works. And so what? Such apologetics are amusing coming from children, but to hear an adult make such excuses is not funny at all. It is merely sad.

Few precocious adolescent "hackers" are capable of understanding why responsible nations must ban "hacking", but as adults we can all recognize that these apologetics for hobbyist "hacking" carry no weight at all, and so we must do what is right. If you style yourself a "hacker" and you really want to play around with dangerous toys, be it source code, fissionable material, or biotoxins, then you have only one route open to you: go to college and prove that you really have the mental horsepower to cut the mustard, and prove also that you are a loyal patriot who can be trusted with potentially deadly power. Then, and only then, will a decent society trust you with the secrets of our most awesome technology. Those too impatient to wait, too dull to get into a university, and too flaky to get security clearance due to low character, drug abuse, and trafficking with unsavory characters are simply out of luck. And it's a good thing too.

Is it practical to ban "hacking" now?

Absolutely. There is no better time than now. As we have seen by the recent mass murders by terrorists, computer technology is a mainstay of criminals, and they rely most on such "free" tools as text editors and military-grade encryption programs that "hackers" use simply because they think it is cute to play with such power. But the rest of society has lost patience with this childish diddling, and the civilized world has said unequivocally that we want strong legal safeguards enacted to put an end to "hacking" and terrorism. We most especially have no qualms about banning activities like playing with explosives or creating software when these so-called "hobbies" are restricted to a tiny fringe element who for whatever reason gets no pleasure from healthy pastimes like fly fishing or drinking alcohol at gentlemen's clubs.

Put simply, normal folks are not going to let themselves get blown up because a tiny minority of freaks like to "hack". If you aren't willing to code for Uncle Sam, then don't code at all.
 
 
 
 

Author's note:  Since it is likely that many so-called g**ks or "hackers" will read this article and will perhaps become angry about it, and then, typically, lose control of their anger, I want to this opportunity to ask them to please refrain from attacking Adequacy.org in retaliation. Though you might disagree with an opinion that you read, that is no reason to launch a denial of service attack against the medium. Please use your reason and, if you feel strongly, engage in a polite dialogue, rather than acting out your anger with illegal "hacking" attacks. Thank you for not attacking this web site.


Get rid of computers altogether. (2.66 / 3) (#2)
by Starship Trooper on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 02:24:54 PM PST
Studies have shown that computers do nothing to increase worker productivity; they have simply been shoehorned into our workplaces by hype and false claims of being "easy to use" and "faster". The Internet is little more than an interactive television set, and with an Internet connection in practically every school and business, workers' and students' time is spent more and more on useless sites such as hotmail and slashdot. Obviously, this time used to be spent getting actual work done, and any productivity gained by using computer software is offset by the loss to Internet, Minesweeper and other distractions. I say we banish computers from our workplaces, and give them back to the garage-based "haxors" they originally came from. These "haxors" could hardly cause any damage when they are the only ones using computers.
---
A seasoned witch could call you from the depths of your disgrace, and rearrange your liver to the solid mental grace

Not radical enough (4.66 / 3) (#4)
by Anonymous Coward on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 02:58:31 PM PST
Ban all amateur decision making. Most non-experts make decisions based on misleading incomplete information and attempts by corporations to confuse and seduce (aka advertising.) As a result, we vote people like Bush into office. We need government by experts and indeed EVERYTHING done by experts.

Making programming illegal is too little too late.
The government who will licence our programmers was elected by idiots and misled amateur voters.
We need to start at the top. Maybe the Myers-Briggs will help select experts for us. Arent they experts at such things?
-- Support the home page homeless.

 
IDIOTS (2.50 / 2) (#6)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 05:52:57 PM PST
I can not believe what you people are suggesting.
1) if you think computers don't do anything for productivity you are seriously lacking intelligence. how do you think we are able to fly planes, drive cars, use a microwave? its all with the help of computers. if it weren't for computers, you would be taking cold baths, eating half cooked food, and laboring every day on the field.

2) licensing programming has got to be the most ridiculous idea i have ever heard of. whoever promotes the idea of banning amatuer programming obviously knows nothing about the software industry. a lot of software you use or hear about is optimized by those amature programmers. how do you think operating systems like linux evolved? it was developed by amature programmers, optimized by amature programmers, and is today used by huge coporations in a variety of flavors.

if you still think programming should be made illegal, move to afghanistan where electronics are illegal. maybe you'll live a lot happier there.


Where do you find these optimizations? (3.50 / 2) (#10)
by elenchos on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 06:20:26 PM PST
If there is any "optimization" in Lunix that was done by a hobbist, I'm completely ignorant of it. Perhaps you could point out an example of such an "optimization". And what do you mean by this term anyway? That some non-professional with no university training or connection to the legitimate software engineering discipline somehow made Lunix run better? How? Where?

And then we have the question of what good any such "optimization" could have done anyway. Lunix is a OS by "hackers" for "hackers." Does it have any practical use outside of the "hacker" underground? And don't start telling me about IBM building Beowulf clusterers either. IBM is a trusted defense contractor and no one could object to their work on this technology. But where is there a role for tinkerers in that?

Your example of using computers to "fly planes, drive cars, use a microwave" are quite telling. Aren't all these things embedded systems? Does that have anything to do with desktop PCs? And do hobbyists have anything to do with programming the computers that make planes fly?

No. "Hackers" strictly work on making planes crash.


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill


Linux programmers no go school (1.00 / 1) (#51)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 01:06:10 AM PST
<<If there is any "optimization" in Lunix that was done by a hobbist, I'm completely ignorant of it. Perhaps you could point out an example of such an "optimization". And what do you mean by this term anyway? That some non-professional with no university training or connection to the legitimate software engineering discipline somehow made Lunix run better? How? Where? >>

First you ARE completely ignorant.

Second, most people who work on the Linux kernel, including those at IBM, have computer Science degrees. Linus Torvalds has a Maters Degree in Computer by the way.


Linux Torvalds is no hobbyist. Don't take credit. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
by elenchos on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 01:57:53 AM PST
This is typical of how "hackers" steal. If they aren't swiping your music or your bank account number, they are taking credit for things they didn't do. It's just lucky they can't steal your girlfriend. They'd do it in a second if they could guess how.

Linux Torvalds was obviously qualified to go to a university, and did his famous work at a university. No "hacker" could get into a university, and once there, no "hacker" would be allowed to use expensive equipment or to meddle with any important projects. Torvalds was granted this responsibility because he could be trusted, hence he cannont be considered a "hacker". He was not and is not any kind of amateur or hobbyist. The entire point of this discussion is to limit programming to only trustworthy professionals like Linux Torvalds, and to put an end to the dangerous foolishness of dilettanes. The kiddies can't claim they are useful by taking credit for work done by pros.

As far as my ignorance of these "optimizations", are you keeping the details a secret? I keep asking: what hobbyist (non-professional) added any so-called "optimization" to Lunix? Who? Where? Why is it so difficult to show me the evidence for this extraordinary claim?


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill


The posts continue... (3.00 / 2) (#87)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 05:59:33 AM PST
The name of the OS is Linux. The name of it's principal creator is Linus Torvalds. If it's not too hard, please refer to each as such.

Linus Torvalds can very well be considered a hacker. Hacker is not necessarily a term which implies criminal intent (refer to the definition I just posted).

If you are interested in the developement process of the Linux kernel (which you admit to being ignorant of), please refer to Kernel Traffic. It's a summarization of mailing list discussions by the active developers of the Linux kernel. Also, if you would like a look into the people behind some of the code, check out an article printed by Linux Magazine. You'll notice that the short descriptions don't really touch on their backgrounds. You see, Linux is an open developement environment. In order to make a contribution, you don't submit your resume, you submit code. If the code is useful, it's included, if not, it's not included. It's that simple.

I'll admit, most of the work on the kernel is done by "professionals" and people involved in higher education. That would only make sense. Creating an operating system is an ambitious project and in order to make useful contributions, you have to have great knowledge and experience with computing ideas and techniques.

Calling for the ban of "unlicensed" programming is ridiculous. Much of the interest in a system like Linux, or computer systems in general, is due to the fact that anybody can use a computer and get acquainted with computing concepts. Just because most consumer desktop users don't take advantage of the oppurtunity is no reason to ban the practice altogether.

When a computer user is able to write a virus which can hobble all users of a certain operating system, it's indicative of a poorly designed OS and/or poorly infomed users. The effects of Nimda, Code Red, etc. are all easily avoidable, it's just that computer users don't take responsibility for their systems and the system creators made some poor design decisions.

The licensing idea is not a bad one, but I believe you're taking the wrong approach. I say, license computer users (which include those who choose to program). Before somebody drops a grand or two on a complicated machine, they should be educated on it's uses and maintenance. This way, you don't have home users with an unpatched Windows NT/2000 machine just waiting to get infected with the latest strain of Nimda or Code Red. This way, you don't have inquisitive, but ignorant, email users opening up an attatchment named "readme.exe" (and the fact that that file can completely corrupt the OS is a bad OS design decision). I don't know about you, but I'm a fan of legislation that expands our freedoms and makes excercising them easier.

This is typical of how "hackers" steal.
What? He didn't take credit for anything. He said that you are ignorant. He then said, "the developers of Linux...", while not claiming to be one himself. How can that be construed as stealing? Please refrain from making blanket statements, especially when they are unfounded. The gross stereotypes running abound on this site sicken me. You all might as well start calling me a "nigger" and telling me to go back to "hood". Your treatment and ideas towards "g**ks" are fundamentally the same as other racist or discriminatory behavior.

- chuckx - Charles K. Lee II -
- chuckx@cold-sun.com -
- http://www.cold-sun.com -



This is ridiculous! (none / 0) (#107)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 07:39:55 AM PST
Bill Gates never finished college and now he is Microsoft's head programmer. Never mind that fact (which I can't wait to see how some of you socialist pricks will spin) he is also the head of the so called MCSE that so many of you believe should become the defacto standard for programming.
The U.S. government, alright it was really the FBI, went out and hired the help of the former Cult of the Dead Cow. For those of you who don't know the CDC was one of the top hacking organizations in the world. They are now dispersed through the highest levels of the FBI and CIA and working on keeping your PIN numbers, drivers licenses, bank accounts and ever girlfriends (I couldn't believe how stupid that comment was) safe.
How about the stories we hear day after day about amateur programmers who broke into a secured system somewhere only to turn around and tell the administrator about the security hole and how to fix it?
If we didn't have people like this Microsoft's world would quickly become the bible and all of our information could be easily compromised.
Aside from that, if you ban amateur programming in the U.S., you still have to deal with offshore hackers who will be launching attacks from abroad (and believe me they will). Mafia Boy is from Montreal, Canada.
Contrary to popular belief the U.S. does not govern the world. China, Russia, Europe, etc... all have programmers capable of creating mass damage at any one time. Making it illegal in the U.S. will not stop adequacy.org (an accurate name given the basis for this whole argument) from being brought down again and again.
I do have a solution for you though. Perhaps if you all went to the scrap yards, fixed up some model "T" Fords and moved to wheat fields in the middle of Oklohoma then you could live like Mormon's and never worry about the world of evil technology which would be passing you by.

P.S. If not for the tinkering of mad scientists, evil warlocks and terribly derranged artists modern medicine would never have been invented and people would still be dying from things like the Chicken Pox.



 
stupid people offer stupid solutions (none / 0) (#147)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 02:48:29 PM PST
How the hell do you expect anyone to take this concept of banning and licensing seriously when you have no concept of programming what-so-ever.

Hell your definition of HACKER is utter bullshit.

This ideology that ALL Linux users are goofey looking hackers, with no money, no life is utterly rediculous. I supposed Bill Gates looks like George Clooney in your mind (fag). Not all programmers look like they stepped out of Revenge of the Nerds. This proves that you have NO IDEA what's going on in the world today and are VERY close minded.

Is Linux a hacker OS? Yes, but not in the way you think. Hacking a kernel and hacking/cracking networks are to VERY different things. Almost ANY programmer (whether a kid in his parent's basement, a High School Student, a University Student or a University Graduate) has the potential skills to be a hacker. What kind of hacking is another story.

If you want to use your methodology to label hackers then EVERY programmer working at Microsoft is a HACKER.


I guess I didn't make my point clear enough. (1.00 / 1) (#169)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 07:48:41 PM PST
How the hell do you expect anyone to take this concept of banning and licensing seriously when you have no concept of programming what-so-ever.
I don't take the concept of banning programming seriously (note my comment where I refer to the idea as "ridiculous"). I am familiar with programming methods and concepts. If I gave the impression that I wasn't, I apologize because you've gotten the wrong impression. I thought it was clear (from that post and my previous ones) that I am familiar with computing topics such as Linux, operating systems, programming, etc.

Hell your definition of HACKER is utter bullshit.
It is, however, the definition of hacker most accepted by the Linux community and more importantly by the dictionary I posted the link to (and by other dictionaries too). The main point I was trying to get across was that a hacker is not inherently malicious. For the sake of clarity, it would be nice if in the comments posted here, people would use the term "cracker" to refer to a hacker with a malicious intent.

This ideology that ALL Linux users are goofey looking hackers, with no money, no life is utterly rediculous.
I completely agree with this statement. If I said anything which implied otherwise, it was completely unintentional.

If you want to use your methodology to label hackers then EVERY programmer working at Microsoft is a HACKER.
I agree. I do not believe I would be of line if I were to say, "Microsoft employees are paid to hack Windows code". The term hack, according to it's dictionary definition, is "to write or refine computer programs skillfully". That happens to be exactly what Microsoft developers do with Windows code.

I realize that there are also negative connotations to the word "hack", but I am not using it in that sense when I refer to either Linux or Windows developement.

- chuckx - Charles K. Lee II -
- chuckx@cold-sun.com -
- http://www.cold-sun.com -



definition (0.00 / 1) (#222)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 10:18:48 AM PST
" It is, however, the definition of hacker most accepted by the Linux community and more importantly by the dictionary I posted the link to (and by other dictionaries too). The main point I was trying to get across was that a hacker is not inherently malicious. For the sake of clarity, it would be nice if in the comments posted here, people would use the term "cracker" to refer to a hacker with a malicious intent."

I believe he was referring to the definition from the "Adequacy Dictionary for DumbShits" ("fixed" by the editor's and hopefully it's 100% correctly, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA).


 
living in a bubble (3.00 / 1) (#96)
by THC 1138 on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 06:39:42 AM PST
<< No "hacker" could get into a university, and once there, no "hacker" would be allowed to use expensive equipment or to meddle with any important projects.>>

That is a very ignorant statement. At the University of FLorida, I knew lots of people who did hacking, using expensive university equipment. And Robert Tappin Morris, who released one of the first internet viruses, released that virus at a University, and he wrote it using their equipment.


How does it feel? Well it feels f**king blind. - b. k.

 
Optimization (none / 0) (#186)
by Fordi on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 09:54:31 PM PST
He's referring to the thousands of Usenet posts by amteur coders that said, "hey, maybe this would work more quickly if it was written this way".

The beauty of Open source is that with each progressive version of an operating system, not only do people bitch and complain about bugs in their system, but they actually FIX them on their own, and submit them to the authors. The authors get the credit, of course, and I'd not have it any other way.

Without amateur programmers, however, linux would have remained in the stone ages.


 
Ludicrous licensing (3.66 / 3) (#13)
by Starship Trooper on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 06:31:34 PM PST
2) licensing programming has got to be the most ridiculous idea i have ever heard of.

Yeah, and I bet you think licensing drivers is ludicrous as well. In today's "wired" marketplace, safe computer programming is just as important as safe driving is to get from place to place. Malicious and incompetent programmers, just like malicious and incompetent drivers, can cost other people their lives or property. A license to keep these bad seeds "off the streets" of the Internet, so to speak, would only make things safer.
---
A seasoned witch could call you from the depths of your disgrace, and rearrange your liver to the solid mental grace

very poor analogy (none / 0) (#76)
by frosty on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 04:04:28 AM PST
programming and driving cars are two very different things. What do you mean when you say "safe computer programming?". If you mean properly written code written with good security methodologies, than almost every software company should be shut down right now. Poor programming om Microsoft's part is what gave us Code Red I/II/III Nimda et. al. Very few, if any commercial software is written very well, and most of it is not written very "safely" Remember all those "illegal operations" your computer performs?

One other thing about the car analogy. how does issuing licences keep non-licenced people from driving??? If I have no licence I can still steal a car and run people over with it, ditch the car, and leave the state. Remember, licencing things does nothing to curtail illegal activities.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger" -J.R.R. Tolkien

MS = buggy (1.00 / 1) (#145)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 02:37:48 PM PST
Go to www.microsoft.com/security and click Security Bulletins.

There is a HUGE list of KNOWN bugs in Microsoft products reported on Microshaft's own web site.

These are the people you want to be in charge of this stupi-ass licensing concept!?!


Interesting (5.00 / 1) (#151)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 03:33:19 PM PST
So Lunix has no bugs? That's demonstratably false.
At least MS post the bugs on their site, unlike Lunix Ltd.


ignorance (none / 0) (#187)
by frosty on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 10:05:22 PM PST
first, it's spelled Linux, not Lunix. Second thre is no Lunix (or Linux) Ltd. Third, this notion that bugs are not tracked or fixed is just plain false. There is a mailing list read daily by hundreds of Linux developers all over the world who are working continually to improve Linux and find and fix bugs. It is not common for bug fixes to be released within hours of them being discovered. Conrast this wth MS's bug fix process which can take days, weeks, or even months.

Please get your facts straight before trying to enlighten people with your "wisdom".

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger" -J.R.R. Tolkien

Look (none / 0) (#216)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 08:08:48 AM PST
If MS take time to fix their bugs, unlike Linuz Corp., isn't that a better thing than hacking changes on? Obviously it is.


you no write so good (none / 0) (#270)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 07:41:59 AM PST
please demonstrate how "Obviously it is."
preferably in more comprehensible english


 
Hmm (none / 0) (#185)
by Fordi on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 09:50:31 PM PST
D'you realize that if microsoft's 'qualified' programmers had any sense, they'd have fixed the known bugs before allowing the release of the OS?


 
stop writing amature! (3.66 / 3) (#44)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 12:48:58 AM PST
You'd think your given hacker's obsession with porn sites would be sufficient to familiarize him with the spelling of amateur. This is indicative of the substandard intelligence which infects hackers, I'm afraid, and I must plead you stick to data entry so as not to imperil innocents. I'd have begged you to wank more attentively in the future if I didnt know the distinguishing feature of all criminals and hackers in particular was Attention Defecit Disorder. Your post is saddens on just so many levels.


your spelling is off, so everything you say is (none / 0) (#95)
by THC 1138 on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 06:33:44 AM PST
wrong.

You actually spelled amateur two different ways in your post.


How does it feel? Well it feels f**king blind. - b. k.

 
g**k crooks (4.20 / 5) (#5)
by otak on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 04:27:12 PM PST
As regular readers of adequacy.org may remember, I agree with elenchos.

The most annoying trait of g**k crooks is constantly pretending that their criminal activities are not only legal, but are also morally justified. Witness the regular trotting out of the 'fair use' argument. Every time some new way of stealing other people's property gets posted on slashdot, CmdrTaco or one of his hacker buddies feels obliged to post some whining justification of its existence on the grounds that it could have a legal use under some extremely unlikely set of circumstances. I'm sure that if Taco and friends had been aboard the aircraft hijacked for the WTC attack they would have been bleating about how box cutters would have a legitimate use "like, if one of the passengers got stuck in a box, dude".

Another regularly advanced excuse is that breaking into other peoples intellectual property is justified "because otherwise DVDs and things won't, like, work on Lunix, dude". Well, sorry buddy, but you're still a thief even if you're stealing to support your bastard offspring of an Operating System. The DVDs in my local shops won't work in my DVD player while they're sitting on a shelf in town, but that doesn't give me an excuse to go and steal them.

Maybe g**ks just can't handle the thought of being criminals, or maybe years of playing video games and wanking over video porn has convinced them that whatever they believe is true, is true. Either way they're a bunch of self-serving amoral jerks, and the sooner we can legislate them out of existance the better.


I don't know why I keep doing this... (5.00 / 2) (#9)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 06:09:17 PM PST
Well, sorry buddy, but you're still a thief even if you're stealing to support your bastard offspring of an Operating System. The DVDs in my local shops won't work in my DVD player while they're sitting on a shelf in town, but that doesn't give me an excuse to go and steal them.
Let me illustrate a situation I encountered not too long ago.

I have a computer. I went to a local computer shop and bought a DVD-ROM drive. In the aims of having the best performance, I also bought a Hollywood+ DVD decoder card. I went to Best Buy and bought a DVD. I took my legally purchased equipment back home and proceeded to set everything up.

At the time, I was using Debian (a distribution of Linux). I downloaded it for free, which is fully legal and encouraged by it's producers.

My problem is that the data on the DVD is encrypted and without some sort of software to decrypt it, I cannot watch the movie.

Note that all I said I want to do is to watch the movie. This, as far I know, is a legal use of the DVD I bought. I don't think I'm going out on a limb when I say that that is the exact purpose the DVD was produced for.

I did install a version of DeCSS along with DVD viewing software in order to use all the equipment and DVDs (that I bought) for their intended purposes. However, I am technically breaking the law.

In order to use the software that comes with the decoder card, I have to pay Microsoft to use their OS, so I can use the manufacturers software and drivers (which can be construed as a direct result of the fact that Microsoft has a near monopolistic hold on the desktop OS market). The manufacturer does not produce Linux drivers. This is logical, since the Linux market is very marginal. It would not make business sense for the company to spend the time and resources to produce and maintain Linux versions of their software.

However, thanks to the hardwork and technical knowledge of a group of Linux users, a Linux version of the drivers for the hardware are being produced. Like a lot of Linux drivers and software, the support isn't as full featured or easy to use as the official Windows based counterpart. By using it, I was able to use the equipment I legally bought.

I was happy and so were the equipment manufacturers since I bought their hardware. On top of that, they didn't even have to spend time and resources supporting me, since that was being done by a group of people completely unaffiliated with the company (when I switched the computer over to Windows 2000, they did hear from me though, because their Win2K support was marginal at the time).

I really don't understand how this situation can be construed as negative. I'm happy becuase I'm making use of the equipment I legally purchased. The equipment manufacturers are happy becasue they made money off of the said purchases. The Linux driver developers are happy because they have another user providing feedback for the work their doing. The DVD producers are happy, because I'm happily consuming one of their products. But wait....

The DVD producers aren't happy. I am using software (not produced by them) that makes use of the hardware (not produced by them) that I bought in a way not sanctioned by them. They aren't able to milk this situation for all it's worth. By trying to get a strangle hold on the DVD player market and lobbying for increased legislated control over how products not produced by them can be used, they end up infringing on the rights of people like me, who just want to make use the stuff they bought.

I would attempt to take the time to refute the argument made by the main poster. But arguing the opposite perspective around here is an incredibly laborous process (just look at the length of this post). I have to constantly explain anything remotely technical (notice the excessive use of parentheses) becuase otherwise I will be construed as "g**k" trying to "confuse" all the "normal people" with my technical mumbo jumbo. Hopefully, the above post will be read and understood. Hopefully, it won't be modded down like most all my other posts for expressing an alternate viewpoint (thanks Craig McPherson!). Hopefully, I'll recieve a similarly logical reply.

- chuckx - Charles K. Lee II -
- chuckx@cold-sun.com -
- http://www.cold-sun.com -


*notes*
My dad named me the "II" becuase he thought "Jr." sounded funny. If you have any problems, take them up with him.

Please excuse any spelling mistakes. I don't really believe that detriments the point I'm trying to make.

Also, don't mistake this for a Windows vs Linux argument. As I said above, I switched from Linux to Windows.


irrelevant (3.66 / 3) (#50)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 01:01:22 AM PST
Your problems with Lunix are your own to resolve legally without special recognition for your failure to integrate with the rest of humanity in favor of pursuing hacker ethics.

In order to use the software that comes with the decoder card, I have to pay Microsoft to use their OS, so I can use the manufacturers software and drivers

So? In order to fill your alluring clothes, you must pay grocers before transmuting their cheezos and dip into sickly, white hacker lard. Using your logic, I can justify siphoning gas from my neighbor's car in order to run the SUV I legally bought from Ford. CSS belongs to someone just as clearly as the petrol belongs in your neighbor's gas tank.

You cannot steal things with impunity simply because you are a hacker; ignorance has never been an excuse for breaking the law and hacker is just high tech ignorance. You have failed to understand this article completely.


This site is a joke right? (2.00 / 2) (#66)
by Smuttley on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 02:46:56 AM PST
first of all I just want to check, this site is a joke right? You guys really aren't serious about this stuff are you?

Any way on with it

Your problems with Lunix are your own to resolve legally without special recognition for your failure to integrate with the rest of humanity in favor of pursuing hacker ethics.

First of all it's called Linux, at first I thought you'd just made a typo but no it would seem that you just can't spell.

Secondly what ever happened to having a choice? A choice to be ripped off by Microsoft or to use a decent OS, like Linux (not Lunix).

Third, how the hell is by-passing CSS to watch a legally bought DVD on a legal OS, on legal hardware illegal? No one stole the code to CSS, some 16 year old kid managed to by pass it with ease with a very simple piece of code. If i had written CSS I would be ashamed of myself for having written such a useless piece of software. I don't have to pay for a licence to watch a VHS tape, why the hell should I pay you a licence to watch a legally bought DVD, the DVD I bought didn't come with any Terms and Conditions telling me what system I can watch it on and which I can't.

Well having read a few more articles on this site I have decided it's must be a joke. If not then it's blind idiots like most of those here who let huge corporations like Microsoft obtain such powers over governments and laws.


Nothing wrong with CSS (5.00 / 1) (#69)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 02:53:38 AM PST
It conforms to the US crypto export laws from the time it was written. This restricts it's keysize. The cipher used in CSS, named cryptomeria I believe, remains uncracked. The people at fault were xing, who failed to implement CSS correctly, opening up a hole for the hackers to get in and do what hackers do: steal intellectual property.

Really, it's xing who should be ashamed.


of course there is (5.00 / 2) (#73)
by Smuttley on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 03:50:07 AM PST
I'm sorry, but how exactly is being able to play a DVD stealing IP? it's not as if you couldn't copy a DVD before DeCSS anyway, and I don't see linux users charging people to watch their DVD on a system using DeCSS.

The MPAA is just pissed off that some naughty people are getting away with watching DVDs without using a piece of software that the developers had to pay a stupid amount of money for a CSS licence. If watching movies that you've paid good money for is illegal I hate to think what's next. Well in fact if the SSSCA bill gets through I know what will be next, open source software.

Anyway, there is nothing wrong with the way I watch DVDs as I live in the UK which doesn't recognise the stupid DMCA and therefore for me there is nothing wrong with using DeCSS. It's just the unfortunate people in the US, where the government puts corporate rights before the right's of it's own people, who are accused of stealing when they watch movies.


It is a violation of the license agreement. (5.00 / 2) (#160)
by elenchos on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 05:27:32 PM PST
If you don't like the agreement, then don't buy the product.

If you read the GPL, and you don't want to be bound by it, then don't agree to it and don't use GPL software. By using the IP covered by the license, you are agreeing to be bound by it. It is all very simple.

This is an example of the hypocricsy of hackers. They are happy to demand that other people be bound by license agreements like the GPL, but they think they have a special privilige to violate licenses they don't find to be advantageous to themselves.


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill


Lawlessness (5.00 / 1) (#162)
by Observer on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 05:57:36 PM PST
Ludicrous licenses have simply been met with equally ludicrous opposing licenses. Corporate terms restrict usage to a very narrow acceptable band, whereas open terms do the opposite.

It's cause and effect, the search for balance. If someone intentionally attacks my home, I fight to be able to protect my home. To reasonable people, many of the legislature being passed by corporations seems greedy and overbearing. Equate this with an abusive parent who is angry at a child because the child is growing up and isn't willing to be held down with the yoke of supporting the parent that has abused him.

Look around you. Who would want to be a martyr? Why should corporations be any different? They are entities not unlike any individual human. Of course they'll want things a certain way, and will keep their icy grasp on the law of the land until they simply slip into oblivion. It is this clout that must be relinquished in order for progress to happen. Any corporation which allows itself to fade will give rise to others.

The stifling of democracy in this country has simply given rise to a plethora of miniature dictatorships, many of which are the size of small nations. Why should companies be treated any differently than governments? They are already above the law, however, so it would seem that hope is mostly lost. Especially since many on this board and the United States in general advocate the compliance of degrading mandates. Lobbied legislature to enforce overly obsequious licensing schemes will not fix the problem. It will only become worse, and by then, we will all be paying the price whether we were for or against it. History repeats itself.

I'll be moving to an undisclosed location far from the reaches of mega-conglomerate corporations now, thanks for the oppression and spiritual decay.


 
GPL (none / 0) (#183)
by Fordi on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 09:35:08 PM PST
The GPL is a very simple thing.

If you're going to distribute it, give the proper credit, and provide the source code.

Most people don't distribute it.

Also, there's noting in the licenses on the DVDs *I* own that says viewing this DVD is illegal. I don't know aobut you.


 
If you think this site is a joke (5.00 / 1) (#126)
by dmg on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 10:39:39 AM PST
Read the FAQ. It is in our meta section.

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

 
You ignorant git (none / 0) (#109)
by typical geek on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 07:50:40 AM PST
<i>. I went to Best Buy and bought a DVD. </i>
<p>
Yes, you own the media, but you don't own the data, you license it. The original owners of the data (the copyright owners) can set terms on what you can or can't do with the data.
<p>
You hackers have a severe myopia on other's peoples' rights. If I were to take this Linux source code, change the comments and descriptive files to call it typicalux and sell it for thousands of dollars without the source code, you would all be up in arms. If I worked at Microsoft and incorporated chunks of the Linux source code into Windows, you would all be up in arms. <b>It's the same issue.</b> If the copyright owners only want you to play it on Windows machines, they have that right.
<p>
Next you hackers will be complaining that you can't drive your cars down the middle of a schoolyard, or mining companies can't use explosives for fun, or doctors can't sell you morphine for your parties.


gcc is to software freedom as guns are to personal freedom.

Licencing agreement (none / 0) (#132)
by frosty on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 11:26:43 AM PST
The Licence agreement for the DVD goes something like this "you agree not to distribute copies of this media, or rebroadcast it without express written consent etc." It doesn't say "you must play this DVD with XYZplayer and it must only be played on Microsoft operating systems." The agreement only restricts what you can do with your media, not how you do it.

If I own a CD/DVD/VHS/whatever. I can make a copy of it, leave the original in the basement at home and carry the copy around with me to play in the car, at work etc. And I can (at least should be able to) play that CD/DVD/VHS/whatever in any player I want.

Now what is wrong with that?

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger" -J.R.R. Tolkien

 
This is embarassing. (none / 0) (#327)
by BleedingDark on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 07:31:39 AM PST
Please tell me you're kidding. Using legally purchased hardware and media and using it on an unsupported Operating System is logically the same (according to your argument) as driving a car through a schoolyard? Your analogy is false at the very least, and a complete miscarriage of language if you intended it as anything other than a joke. First off, there is nothing in DVD licensing that dictates that certain hardware/software combos are "illegal" for use in watching DVDs. The only concern of licensing is the Region encoding which is handled in the DVD-ROM drive itself. A more appropriate analogy for the linux user wanting to watch DVDs on his computer is a person using a blender in his living room instead of his kitchen. Is there any logical reason to say that a person should only use his or her blender in his or her kitchen? Is the blender going to behave erratically or in a manner unintended by the manufacturer if it is operated from the comfort of one's favorite chair or sofa? Implying that all Linux users are inherently "hackers" reveals a Luddite mentality. Would you rather simply smash all computers using the Linux operating system so we can live in a Windows-only world? The fact is both Linux and Windows are, somewhere in their history, derived from general UNIX. Linux is not a tool of crackers (which is what you should say when you say "hackers"); Linux is an excellent open-source alternative to MacOS and Windows that is in most respects more stable and more secure than either of the aforementioned OSes. The failure of the Motion Picture industry to support Linux or UNIX with their CSS licensing reveals their staunch refusal to adapt along with the constantly evolving technology they employ. Something tells me the MPAA was less than thrilled with the notion of watching DVDs on computers as a whole, much less watching them on an OS they are too lazy to offer support for. Calling someone "ignorant" for bringing forth a valid criticism of the CSS standard only serves to reveal your own ignorance about technology and intellectual property laws. The fact is, if enough consumers raise hell about the lack of Linux support under CSS, the MPAA will support it. Marginalizing Linux and the people who work diligently to make it better will not make it go away. Would we be up in arms if Windows "stole" pieces of Linux and incorporated it? Nah. Like I said, Windows and Linux ultimately share the same lineage, and besides, whether or not Microsoft steals open-source code has no bearing on this argument. The DVD copyright owners don't want us "to play them on Windows machines," because the operating system is an irrelavant issue. They're just pissed that someone found a way around they're protection scheme. Instead of blaming the people that took that knowledge and started ripping copies of movies, they blamed the people that figured it out in the first place, despite that copyright law at the time dictated that, as licensees of the data contained on the DVD, they were within their rights to watch that data. Circumventing encryption was the only way they could view the data they had a purchased a license to view. If I buy the hardware necessary to watch a DVD, I fully expect to be able to watch it, regardless of whatever Operating System is running the hardware. This OS restriction is purely arbitrary. The MPAA might as well have said that they don't support silver DVD players and brought suit against anyone who watched a movie in a silver player instead of a black one. By the way, "gcc" is a set of compilers. I'm not sure if you understand that.


 
Umm, no. (2.75 / 4) (#182)
by Fordi on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 09:20:25 PM PST
You agree with elenchos because you're an idiot.

bastard offspring of an operating system? What do YOU run? Win95? 98? ME? You probably couldn't figure out how to troubleshoot your comp without a technician.

Put it this way: There are people who are content to merely drive cars, and there are people who build and repair cars. If you've a tiny bit of intellect, you'd figure out how to fix your computer whatever goes wrong.

I've done everything from soldering replacement surface mounted components to my motherboard to tearing apart my win2k registry to find out why I can't seem to set up a mail server. All without technical training or experience. The only thing that let me perform duties like this is the shared knowledge, experience and CODE provided on the internet, primarily by the open-source community.

Without others like myself who like to dig into the internet and find out how it works, the internet would slowly fall apart. Or, at the worst, stagnate.


 
huh?!? (none / 0) (#385)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Oct 23rd, 2001 at 10:58:18 PM PST
<<If you aren't willing to code for Uncle Sam, then don't code at all."

Huh?

Bacwards engineering is not like hacking into say Pioneers datacenter and stealing the source code for a driver, which wasn't done. It beasically means that it was written by people who know how to write drivers and know how to effectively write them to communicate with said device.

Note: Do not confuse this with the backwards engineering of CP/M to create QDOS which later was bought by MS and renamed MSDOS. The kernel itself was stolen. The shell and much of the rest of the OS was backwards engineered. Gary Kildall sued MS based upon the fact that the KERNEL was down right stolen.


 
What? (1.00 / 1) (#7)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 05:54:21 PM PST
Is this serious, i can't even tell.

Would this ban on amature programming include html, and perl scripts, if it does take your site down.


ahem (5.00 / 1) (#11)
by Starship Trooper on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 06:24:30 PM PST
HTML is not a programming language. You can't "program HTML". Pearl is more line noise than language as far as I can tell, so I wouldn't call it programming either. You may wish to pick better examples next time you try to make an argument.
---
A seasoned witch could call you from the depths of your disgrace, and rearrange your liver to the solid mental grace

Morons (1.00 / 1) (#15)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 07:30:27 PM PST
Ummm.... I beg to differ, HTML is a programming language.. hence the "Hypertext Markup LANGUAGE"

When you write raw HTML code are you not "programming" in a language? But then again, being as uneducated as you are, you probably struggle with a drag and drop interface and fail to understand why someone would write raw HTML.

As far as PERL - not PEARL you moron - goes.... hmm..ah why bother, you wouldn't understand.

One thing though, I'm oh-so-curious... what would you consider a good example of a programming language oh wise one?


Spoken like a true outsider (4.00 / 3) (#19)
by sdem on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 07:57:36 PM PST
When you write raw HTML code are you not "programming" in a language?

Obviously, you are no programmer, as any professional who heard HTML referred to as a programming language would be laughing too hard to form a coherent rebuttal.

you probably struggle with a drag and drop interface and fail to understand why someone would write raw HTML.

You're right of course. There are still masochists out there, but I think we would all prefer that you confined your activities to your bedroom and Geocities pages.

And honestly, I don't understand why people fanatically defend languages like Pearl. It has to be one of the ugliest languages that I have ever seen, not to mention that it is slow and memory intensive. It has also probably created some of the most horrible, sloppy programmers in existance, largely because of its wide availability and irrationally fanatical following, which is, in my eyes, its greatest offense.

Why don't you get a real language, like elisp?


Exactly! (3.40 / 5) (#20)
by T Reginald Gibbons on Thu Oct 11th, 2001 at 08:23:52 PM PST
A quick comparison:

elisp supports multiple polymorphic addressable objects. Perl does not support objects at all.

elisp lists are heterogenous collections. Perl lists are not.

elisp is a cross-platform language. Perl is a linux only language.

elisp is XML ready. Perl lacks a properly implemented XML parser.

elisp supports pointer arithmetic. Perl does not.

elisp compilers optimise code. Perl compilers do not.

elisp is designed for rapid application development. Perl is not.

elisp is easy to learn, yet powerful. Perl is complex, and limited in applicability.

elisp is turing complete. Perl is not.




misinformation (4.00 / 3) (#78)
by cylab on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 04:47:12 AM PST
i dont know elisp, so i wont comment your claims about it, but some statements made about perl are simply untrue:

1. perl does support objects (at least since perl5)
2. perl is not a linux only language. it has its roots in unix and is available for all flavours of it (aix, bsd, solaris, linux, sco unix, etc.) and is even available for windows (try google: activeperl)
3. perl has various xml-parser implementations to choose. if they are properly implemented is not to be judged by you, but by the w3c.
4. perl compilers might optimise code.. depending on their implementation. same is true for any compiled or precompiled language. you cant tell that this is a language feature, it is a vendor-feature instead.
5. perl is powerful, but like every language it is limited in applicability. same is true for elisp. there is no such thing like an universal applicable language.
6. i dont understand your last point. i have no grade in computer science. i might be an amateur, so please explain your point.

as i said, i dont have a grade in computer science. i _only_ have a grade in electrical engineering, but work as software engineer...


 
Elithp (4.00 / 3) (#112)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 08:05:33 AM PST
elisp supports multiple polymorphic addressable objects. Perl does not support objects at all.

Nonsense. Perl has been object oriented since the early '90s.

elisp lists are heterogenous collections. Perl lists are not.

More nonsense. Perl supports heterogenous lists just fine.

elisp is a cross-platform language. Perl is a linux only language.

Perl runs on many more platforms then elisp. In fact, perl runs on many more platforms than Java does.

elisp is XML ready. Perl lacks a properly implemented XML parser.

There a number of parser libraries availalbe for perl, including the ubiquitous expat library.

elisp supports pointer arithmetic. Perl does not.

Not without difficulty. But, why would you want to?

elisp compilers optimise code. Perl compilers do not.

There are some breathtaking optimisations in the perl compiler.

elisp is designed for rapid application development. Perl is not.

Now, we're getting silly. I suppose then, that elisp is the preferred language of RAD web development.

elisp is easy to learn, yet powerful. Perl is complex, and limited in applicability.

More nonesense.

elisp is turing complete. Perl is not.

Being able to run the equivalent of Eliza does not make a language Turing complete. It just means that Eliza has been written in that language.


 
A Good Thing (none / 0) (#378)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Oct 23rd, 2001 at 10:04:35 AM PST
<em>elisp supports pointer arithmetic. Perl does not.</em>

In most cases, this would be considered A Good Thing. Same could be said for a number of your other points.

Cheers,

anon



 
You are an idiot (5.00 / 2) (#63)
by otak on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 02:22:49 AM PST
HTML is a programming language.. hence the "Hypertext Markup LANGUAGE"

Yeah, and the language that we're discussing this in is called "the english LANGUAGE", which must mean that it's a programming language.

what would you consider a good example of a programming language

C. Sweet sweet C.


 
Kids are funny. (5.00 / 1) (#120)
by TheReverand on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 09:42:22 AM PST
Practical Extraction And Report Language.

They changed the name with the 1.0 release.

Some of us remember things correctly.

Those of us who were there anyway. Go back to history class, come back when you know something about computers.


You tell me... (3.00 / 3) (#135)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 12th, 2001 at 12:06:56 PM PST
..which one is the programming language:

Perl
or
Pearl

Also, you can refer to dictionary.com if you need further clarification. Yes, Practical Extraction and Report Language is one of the meaning of the Perl (some say it also means Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister (it's a joke)). But notice the 'a' in 'and' is not part of the acronym. It's comparable to the United States of America. Yes, the word 'of' is part of the name, but the 'o' is not included in the acronym (USA).

To those of you arguing Perl is a worthless language, all I can do is laugh. Go ahead and check out the SourceForge page for Scoop. If you didn't already notice, the script that runs this site is written in Perl.

- chuckx - Charles K. Lee II -
- chuckx@cold-sun.com -
- http://www.cold-sun.com -



A message to Craig McPherson (3.50 / 2) (#171)