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 Human behaviour - my thinking on it

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Feb 14, 2002
 Comments:
Im not pretending to be an expert or anything - in fact what im about to write will probably prove im not lol. This is just the accumulation of years of me thinking about this on and off. Its what *I* believe human behaviour is all about. In no way am I trying to brainwash or force my views on others.
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I am looking at the context of behaviour as how a person chooses to act.

At any moment there are many possible actions available to us. But which action shall we pick? We have to make a decision and from these decisions our behaviour is developed.

A large influence on our decision process is the environment surrounding us. We are constantly monitoring what we see, hear, smell and feel. From this we generate a perception of our current situation. We then use this perception of ourself and environment to generate goals. We arent random creatures - we constantly have specific needs and desires no matter how trivial. These are our goals - even if they are subconcious. We will pick actions that lead us to satisfy these goals that we have set.

In order to make the best decision, we predict the outcome of possible actions in order to decide the one which helps further our goals. In order to do this more effectively we make good use of another factor involved in the decision process - our past experience; the memories stored in our brain.

Understand that im not saying that this decision process happens foremost, but that it is happening on a subconcious level all the time. There is no need for us to do much thinking about simple decisions and accordingly, these are done subconciously. For example you walk out of your house to go shopping. I bet you dont even think which direction to walk in - its a subconcious decision that you dont need to think about.

Therefore how we act isnt down to any form of magic - its just a very complex logical process. I belive that human behaviour can be explained as a cause-action model; that every person's actions could theoretically be predicted in advance from any situation.

Many people will site the fact that we cant actually do this as a reason for this being incorrect.

An easy counter-argument is to use the weather system as an example. The weather system is also unpredictable but we know for sure that its a cause-action model - that theoretically we could predict the weather 100% if only we had all the information.
But of course the weather system is just too complex for us to model accurately - we can never hope to be able to know the exact position of every water droplet in the atmosphere at any given time and according to chaos theory this is what we would have to do in order for our predictions to be accurate.

So you see, the fact that we cant possibly predict something doesnt mean it isnt predictable and its workings ilogical. The human brain is even more complex than the global weather system so its no wonder that we havent been able to predict human behaviour. But this alone doesnt mean the workings of the brain are any form of magic. On the contrary, the fact that the brain is there and that we know there are complex electrical networks inside it, that people with damaged brains display damaged thought processes - these all provide evidence - even though not conclusive at all - that the brain is of a logical, physical design.

Another main argument against human behaviour being logical or explainable is to site that emotions are a magical force that science cannot explain. A common assertion is that love is the most complex emotion and cannot be explained as logic - in fact love is a very simple emotion. Emotions such as love and hate are simple, low level emotions.

We could assume that most species on earth feel some form of love emotion which acts as instinctive force which leads animals to seek out mates. We cant turn love off or help it so it must be instinctive. It probable that most animal species only feel lust - the instinct to mate. But in some species (such as ours) love exists - many male mammals feel a form of love which binds them to protecting their mate just as humans do. Female mammals feel a form of love which binds them to protecting their offspring. So it could be argued that love is a simple, logical mechanism that aids survival. That the human species has taken love further to mean something more - such as marriage and "rules of engagement", is simply down to the beliefs enforced by our society.

Hate is an emotion of defense. By hating something that threatens you in some way, your body can over-ride the fear of confronting that threat - to be able to stand your ground or force your way. This also is very useful in survival. Its hard to imagine that when two rival males of a species are fighting each other over territory or a mate, that they are feeling anything other than hate for each other.
Now, humans are obviously more intelligent than other species and we have developed the love emotion further - its a critical emotion for us as we are social creatures. But it is difficult to see why fundamentally our emotion of love is really much different than the emotion of love that dolphins or apes feel for example.

I said that love and hate are basic emotions - examples of more complex emotions are embarassment and guilt. I doubt many other species on earth will feel these emotion apart from humans. Embarassment is a social emotion which makes you feel bad if you do something out of place of the community.

Maybe this is a safeguard against us doing stupid things that would get us kicked out of a community. Its sure harder to explain embarassment logically than it is to explain love or hate.

So I conclude that human emotion and behaviour is in no way a unique ability and that many other animals share our most valued emotions. That just because these emotions seem strong to us that doesnt make them ilogical. That human behaviour is logical but too complex for us to ever be able to predict. A good thing I think.


So fucking wrong (none / 0) (#1)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Feb 14th, 2002 at 05:09:59 PM PST
I really had a difficult time reading all the way through this one. At evey other line, at least, I wanted to stop and post a reply. It was tough to resist, but I did. All the way up until:

We could assume that most species on earth feel some form of love emotion which acts as instinctive force which leads animals to seek out mates.

I can't continue. I want to, but I can't. I feel like the longer I read the more I unlearn every single thread of philosophy I have ever known, let alone what little I know about biology, physics, chemistry, economics, politics, nature....the list could continue forever.

I've heard that there were some really odd people on the internet but I had no idea there was someone this galactically ignorant.

This entire diary is perfect evidence of why geeks should be banned from Adequacy. And virtually every other place intelligent individuals frequent.


okay (none / 0) (#2)
by PotatoError on Thu Feb 14th, 2002 at 05:16:07 PM PST
i never said it was the truth - just my opinion.

"I feel like the longer I read the more I unlearn every single thread of philosophy I have ever known"
Can you tell me what the truth really is - or your view of it at least? and what its got to do with economics and politics?

What do you think animals are feeling when seeking out mates? and what do you base this assertion on?

At least do some contructive critism. Im open to changing my mind.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

I dont see whats wrong with it (none / 0) (#3)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Feb 14th, 2002 at 09:53:22 PM PST
It all makes perfect sense, even that line, unless you believe that animals cant think to any extent at all.

Everything i know about biology, physics, chemistry, economics, politics, nature etc. only helps to prove the author's opinion, i cannot find any flaw what so ever


 
Its just so horrible (none / 0) (#8)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 03:37:40 AM PST
and what its got to do with economics and politics?

Thats the essence of it, it doesn't have anything to do with economics or politics but its tentacles of ignorance reach so far and so wide that they can pluck nuggets of entirely unrelated knowledge from my mind.

As for my view of the truth, I don't think I could put it into words that you would understand. I certainly couldn't exlain it in the confines of this forum because I am not a gifted wordsmith.


oh please (none / 0) (#9)
by PotatoError on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 03:59:36 AM PST
If you cant give me a critism I must assume you dont have one and that you are talking poo.

At least you could make one point - just one argument based on biology or politics or whatever suits you. I dont care whether you are a wordsmith - im sure not one anyway. You're pretty good with metaphors though.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

Criticism, criticism (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 06:27:18 AM PST
Ok, lets look at the line I quoted in my original post:

We could assume that most species on earth feel some form of love emotion which acts as instinctive force which leads animals to seek out mates.

I will grant you that we could assume that, we could assume anything if we wanted. In light of the evidence of why animals choose the mates they do I don't think you can use that assumption to make any sort of viable argument. There are literally reams of documentation as to why animals choose particular mates, and it varies by species or even locality. I know of no text that claims that the process invloves love in any way, nor does it involve any emotion at all. We humans are very similar, except that we are 'thinking animals'. For certain, we go through an arduous process when we select a mate but the reasons why are totally different. Lower animals care only about propagating their genetic material and thus choose mates that appear most likely to ensure that happens. When a quail puffs himself up and stuts around a wheat field, he is merely displaying his ability to provide food for his offspring in the manner that thousands of years of evolution have accorded to his species. He is not attempting to get a female bird to fall in love with him. The females will select a mate by listening to their drumming and watching their little dances. What this has to do with providing for offspring isn't exactly clear but it obviously doesn't involve anything as worthless to survival as love.

You could attempt to make the case that love is merely a facet of some logical process (and you may have in the latter half of your article, I didn't read it all), but you would be incorrect. Many human beings make choices in mates that are entirely wrong, regardless of what measure you use. We feel love because we have constructed the emotion of love, and it is often almost completely illogical.

By the way, have you been reading anything by Peter Singer lately?


see, this is what I mean (none / 0) (#21)
by PotatoError on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 12:39:36 PM PST
that is a good argument. One which I dont have any specific facts to use against.

I at least stated that I was assuming. I just think along these lines:

There are other highly intelligent social creatures on this planet - namely dolphins and apes. The process they go through to find mates and the feelings involved cannot be that different from ours simply because 20,000 years ago we were not that much different from them socially. I doubt any animal on this planet is actually thinking about propagating their genetic material. More likely they actually find more fit individuals of the opposite sex more attractive. So a feeling of lust rather than a functional need to pass on their genes.

I would argue that where human mate selection differs from animal mate selection is down to the fact that humans no longer have to fight for survival. Even the most weakest human is guaranteed survival in our society - therefore any prerequisite a female has for a strong male mate no longer need apply to humans.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

Ok (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 06:13:27 PM PST
namely dolphins and apes

Uh oh. Not doplphins and apes.

The process they go through to find mates and the feelings involved cannot be that different from ours simply because 20,000 years ago we were not that much different from them socially.

20,000 years ago we were quite a bit different from them socially.

I doubt any animal on this planet is actually thinking about propagating their genetic material.

You are right. The desire to propagate is instinctual, so they don't have to think about it. I would imagine that if you could get inside of the minds of most animals, apes, dolphins, frogs, chickens, whatever, you would find something along the lines of "Gotta find food.....don't get killed.....gotta find food.....don't get killed". Of course that is entirely conjecture on my part but it fits with their behavior.

More likely they actually find more fit individuals of the opposite sex more attractive.

If by 'attractive' you mean 'fit'.

So a feeling of lust rather than a functional need to pass on their genes.

No. Consider the Australian redback spider. Females of the species often mate with three of four males during the breeding season and the one who's sperm actually fertilizes the egg sac is usually the one who can deposit the most in the female. Similar to the black widow, the females often consume the male shortly after mating is complete. You would think, if driven by love, or cold logic, or anything like that, the male would try to escape so that he could preserve his own life. Not in this case, the males actually encourage the females to eat them! They do this becuase it prolongs copulation and allows them to deposit greater amounts of sperm inside the female. Amazing, but the drive to continue the lineage is even stronger than the spider's desire to live.

any prerequisite a female has for a strong male mate no longer need apply to humans.

This is untrue. While I agree that many, many humans (mostly Western ones) make terrible choices when choosing mates, there is still a very strong desire, conscious or not, to choose the fittest mate. Western cultures demonstrate fitness by buying expensive cars, diamonds, homes. In Africa, women make slits in their lips and insert clay plates. The larger the plate the more desirable the woman. Maybe there is logic in there somewhere, I don't know, but it is definitely an attempt to seduce another person into the social construct humans call love or, more likely, to obtain the best possible mate.


If we have free will then so do apes (none / 0) (#63)
by PotatoError on Sat Feb 16th, 2002 at 10:52:10 AM PST
Why do you think that the thinking pattern of apes is simply "Gotta find food.....don't get killed.....gotta find food.....don't get killed"?
You imply that they think like some sort of robots. Just because they are less intelligent than us?
If we made contact with a more intelligent alien species couldnt they think we have no free will? After all they would probably argue that we only show the most basic behaviour.

An chimpanzee can learn, it can socially interact, it can communicate, It can use tools, they can play (unnecessary for survival!), they are sad when a close relative dies.
Just because they dont build things doesnt make them automatically disqualified for having free will. Just because their behaviour or emotions can be considered just basic versions of our own doesnt mean they dont have free will - it just means they are less intelligent.

A grown up chimpanzee has the IQ of a young human child. Are you arguing that children think like robots too? "must eat, dont get killed"
All the evidence points to the conclusion that if humans have free will then so do other highly intelligent animals. Unless you believe the bible in which case you believe animals have no free will regardless.

<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

Free Will is not Intelligence. (none / 0) (#64)
by tkatchev on Sat Feb 16th, 2002 at 10:58:39 AM PST
I realize that Mr. Potato has some sort of deficiency that prevents him from listening to other people, but perhaps this will be interesting to some other readers:

Free will is not correlated to intelligence in any way. Free will is anything that is not completely deterministic.


--
Peace and much love...




Why do you think apes are deterministic?.. (none / 0) (#74)
by PotatoError on Sat Feb 16th, 2002 at 12:55:42 PM PST
..when you are saying that humans arent.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

Empirical evidence. (none / 0) (#79)
by tkatchev on Sat Feb 16th, 2002 at 01:26:38 PM PST
Empricial evidence shows us that apes probably do not have free will. (i.e. they don't laugh at stupid jokes, for example.)


--
Peace and much love...




Check this: (none / 0) (#82)
by The Mad Scientist on Sat Feb 16th, 2002 at 02:07:00 PM PST
http://directory.google.com/Top/Science/Social_Sciences/Anthropology/Enculturated_Apes/

Take special attention to the results of experiments with teaching chimpanzees the sign language.

Experiments show also that monkeys have numerical abilities.

Human and primate brains are constructionally way too similar to suggest their function is fundamentally different.

I am curious about your comments.


Your point?... (none / 0) (#90)
by tkatchev on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 12:44:43 AM PST
My calculator has even better "numerical abilities"; that doesn't mean my calculator is intelligent!

Show me a monkey that laughs at practical jokes, and I'll believe you. Consider it a sort of "litmus test".


--
Peace and much love...




havent you just contradicted yourself? (none / 0) (#97)
by PotatoError on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 10:42:44 AM PST
"My calculator has even better "numerical abilities"; that doesn't mean my calculator is intelligent!"
True.

But then you imply that just because monkeys dont possess humour that they lack free will.

Just as numerical ability has nothing to do with intelligence neither does humour have anything to do with free will.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

You are right. (none / 0) (#99)
by tkatchev on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 11:09:42 AM PST
I believe that humour is something that is tied with free will.

That means that if you can show that monkeys have humour then you could argue that they have free will.

The opposite is, of course, not true; neither does the negation of the first part of the implication imply the second part.


--
Peace and much love...




 
umm (none / 0) (#88)
by PotatoError on Sat Feb 16th, 2002 at 08:47:24 PM PST
"don't laugh at stupid jokes, for example"
could that be because they cant talk? or understand english?
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

Key word -- "stupid". (none / 0) (#89)
by tkatchev on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 12:41:19 AM PST
"Stupid" as in "humor that doesn't require any intelligence or language ability to understand".

If you've ever watched little children (i.e. pre-school or first grade) socialize, you know what I mean -- they seem to enjoy crude humor.

You don't need to understand English or even to be able to talk to understand it -- yet, chimps for all their intelligence simply do not understand humor.


--
Peace and much love...




Errrm... (none / 0) (#91)
by The Mad Scientist on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 05:00:34 AM PST
You don't need to understand English or even to be able to talk to understand it -- yet, chimps for all their intelligence simply do not understand humor.

Errm... I am afraid the second half of your sentence is somehow untrue.

Humor in Primates (at this moment, only a bibliography)
Machiavellian Monkeys & Shakespearean Apes: The Question of Primate Language - mentions sense of humor of Koko the gorilla, and her ability to create new terms for unnamed objects
A Comparison of Primate and Dolphin Intelligence as a Metaphor for the Validity of Comparative Studies of Intelligence - brief mention of brain structure in the areas concerned with humor and creativity in dolphins
What's So Funny? Right Frontal Lobe Damage Interferes With Humor - indirectly related, confirms sense of humor depends on brain's "hardware"
I also stumbled over numerous mentions of expressions of laughter in chimps (and I don't mean Dubya now).

A nice book about the topic seems to be 'The Ape and the Sushi Master'.

Sorry.


Sorry? (none / 0) (#95)
by tkatchev on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 08:32:22 AM PST
Good job, but I don't see how this applies to the argument at hand.

Your only argument seems to be that since there are areas of the human brain that are responsible for humour, then obviously apes must understand jokes.

I am sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold under any scrutiny. It's just bad logic.

Nobody is denying that the human brain has parts that are responsible for humor; after all, humans do not have the power to generate something from nothing.

I believe that things like humour are fundamentally non-deterministic; so far, nobody has found any fallacy in that argument.

If you show me specific examples of apes making and laughing at jokes, then I might believe you. So far, all you gave me is just some very bad argumentation.


--
Peace and much love...




You want examples? (none / 0) (#96)
by The Mad Scientist on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 10:15:52 AM PST
Your only argument seems to be that since there are areas of the human brain that are responsible for humour, then obviously apes must understand jokes.

Because the brain areas responsible for humor are principially the same both for humans, apes, and dolphins. Be accurate.

I believe that things like humour are fundamentally non-deterministic; so far, nobody has found any fallacy in that argument.

I however believe that things like humour are pretty deterministic. Further studies of the responsible brain areas will shed more light at this, and I suppose they will confirm my opinion.

If you show me specific examples of apes making and laughing at jokes, then I might believe you. So far, all you gave me is just some very bad argumentation.

Koko the gorilla, Nim the chimp. Both contain concrete examples.

Or see The Evolution of Laughter.

Comic relief - laughter and the brain - indirectly related.

See also A theory of humor.

Hey - even rats have some sense of fun.


You are illogical. (none / 0) (#100)
by tkatchev on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 11:13:19 AM PST
You said:

Because the brain areas responsible for humor are principially the same both for humans, apes, and dolphins.

Do you realize that that is a completely illogical and senseless phrase?

Do you mean that these "areas" are the same in chemical composition? Biological structure? What exactly do you mean by "principally the same"?

The cells in your finger are "principally the same" as the cells in an earthworm. Does that imply that your finger lives underground and eats dirt?


--
Peace and much love...




Anyway (none / 0) (#104)
by PotatoError on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 03:04:48 PM PST
Koko the Gorilla showed use of humour. She has also made lies and made up new phrases by joining words which implies understanding of the meaning of the words not just a robotic like association.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

 
Not now. (none / 0) (#106)
by The Mad Scientist on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 03:36:19 PM PST
Because the brain areas responsible for humor are principially the same both for humans, apes, and dolphins.
Do you realize that that is a completely illogical and senseless phrase?


Not if you think over it.

In systems where structure determines function - ie, brain - structural similarities suggest functional similarities.

Do you mean that these "areas" are the same in chemical composition? Biological structure? What exactly do you mean by "principally the same"?

Similar - close to identical - in structure ("wiring"), both macro- and microscopical.
Take a human brain, and an animal brain. Damage the same area of them. You will observe impairment or complete failure of a function handled by that area, the same for both species.

The cells in your finger are "principally the same" as the cells in an earthworm. Does that imply that your finger lives underground and eats dirt?

The cells themselves are similar, thus they are likely to (and are) behave similarly, use the same biochemical pathways (ie, Krebs cycle). However, the similarity ends here as my finger is part of me and earthworm is an entity of its own; my finger lacks the structures necessary for its own independent existence; you aren't comparing apples and oranges here - you are comparing apples and orange trees.


 
sigh (none / 0) (#66)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Feb 16th, 2002 at 11:24:47 AM PST
tkatchev has already pointed out to you, numerous times, that free will is not intelligence.

That said:

An chimpanzee can learn, it can socially interact, it can communicate,

So can virtually every other animal on earth. What is it about social interaction and structure that is so wonderful? Chickens in the barnlot have a very strict social hierarchy and a very definite set of rules they all must follow.

It can use tools

That means little more than having a social structure does. I have seen otters use rocks to crack open mussel shells, are they our brothers too?

they can play (unnecessary for survival!),

I admit they play but their play, like that of most other animals, is just practice for their adult life where they will need to run to escape predators, climb trees, leap from limb to limb. The young of big cats do the same thing, only they practice the skills they will need to catch prey. Virtually all mammals 'play', but it should rightly be called practice, and is by many wildlife biologists.

A grown up chimpanzee has the IQ of a young human child.

I would question the methods used to determine a chimp's IQ.

Are you arguing that children think like robots too? "must eat, dont get killed"

Very young ones, yes. That doesn't mean that they don't possess free will.

All the evidence points to the conclusion that if humans have free will then so do other highly intelligent animals.

I have yet to see the evidence of which you speak, does it exist only inside your own head?




So (none / 0) (#75)
by PotatoError on Sat Feb 16th, 2002 at 01:09:15 PM PST
I know that free will isnt intelligence. My reasoning is that if an animal can do everything a human can do on a basic level then this animal very similar to a human in almost all traits.
So why are you making a special exception of one trait - free will?

"So can virtually every other animal on earth"
No, chimpanzees can learn and pass information down generations by teaching. Other animals seem to do this genetically. Almost everything humans can do, chimpanzees can do but on a simpler level.
Why do you refuse to believe that this might be true? are you scared that the specialness of humanity would be eroded slightly?

Apes playing isnt anything to do with practice. They arent preditors. They dont need to play chase. If it was a purely suvival based game then you would expect it to end after many generations of captivity. But no, they are simply getting fun out of playing. It serves no purpose to them - maybe indirectly they are learning something out of playing but so is a child learning something out of their playing.

Im only arguing using chimpanzee's because its a lot easier to compare them to humans than it is to compare another species with humans.

Give me ONE thing that humans can do that hasnt been exhibited on a basic level by chimpanzees.

"Free will is anything that is not completely deterministic." -tkatchev

"Very young ones [humans], yes [think like deterministic robots]. That doesn't mean that they don't possess free will." -you

so you and tkatchev DO disagree on something

<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

One point. (none / 0) (#78)
by tkatchev on Sat Feb 16th, 2002 at 01:24:59 PM PST
The original poster didn't claim that very young babies "behave like deterministic robots" -- I think he claimed that babies think only about survival. (Which doesn't preclude free will, I suppose.)


--
Peace and much love...




 
Further (none / 0) (#93)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 07:59:56 AM PST
So why are you making a special exception of one trait - free will?

You don't seem to grasp the importance of free will.

Almost everything humans can do, chimpanzees can do but on a simpler level.

No. Do chimpanzees make tools? Not use them, make them? I'm not talking about lab chimps who mimic their handlers, I'm talking about chimps in the wild.

are you scared that the specialness of humanity would be eroded slightly?

Not at all. I would like nothing more than for the for the inexhaustible supply of buffoons who live a life that is entirely insulated from the realities of nature to gain just a little more respect for wild animals. Maybe enough for them to stop trying to make them more endearing to the public by seeing how many human traits they can ascribe them.

Apes playing isnt anything to do with practice.

Yes it is.

They arent preditors.

That doesn't matter one whit. I gave you examples of non-predators that practice survival skills.

If it was a purely suvival based game then you would expect it to end after many generations of captivity.

I think you have a poor understanding of the pace at which natural selection results in changes in animals.

Give me ONE thing that humans can do that hasnt been exhibited on a basic level by chimpanzees.

I did that already, tkatchev gave you an even better one.

so you and tkatchev DO disagree on something

Did you fail to read the entire quote or do you just not understand it?


Look your wrong (none / 0) (#98)
by PotatoError on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 11:03:48 AM PST
Can apes make tools?
Yes they can and they do

Also Go read this. Read the section on Koko the gorilla.

This should just about prove to you how apes do have fun and dont just perform robotic like functions purely for survival. It should also show you how apes do actually think.

If you are going to make assertions like "chimps cant make tools" at least make sure that it hasnt already been proved.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

Again (none / 0) (#101)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 01:17:09 PM PST
It hasn't been proven. I asked for examples of chimps making tools in the wild, not in a playpen constructed by their handlers. Actually, I wopuld prefer that the observers had not named the chimps anything as well but that is entirely optional. Before you ram furiously at your keyboard, I do not believe that Jane Goodall's observation of the blade of grass is an example of making a tool. Using yes, making no.

You should learn to be more sceptical of research done by people who have a larger agenda. Most ape tricks are concocted by people who run ape rescue operations, the same people who seek to end vivisection, at least vivisection using apes. It is of no suprise to anyone that they regularly find that apes do wonderful things that should qualify them for the same legal status as human beings.


What's bad on names? (none / 0) (#102)
by The Mad Scientist on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 01:31:38 PM PST
Actually, I wopuld prefer that the observers had not named the chimps anything as well but that is entirely optional.

Why? What's bad on giving names to experimental subjects?


Because it is bad (none / 0) (#115)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Feb 18th, 2002 at 07:05:14 AM PST
It makes them something other than experimental subjects. It leads to things like Top Ten lists of intelligent animals, based entirely on the similarities shared with humans. If we can't accept animals for what they are then I don't see how we will ever come to respect them.

The original diary entry mentions 'many other animals'. It was then distilled down to dolphins (most likely because they are always smiling) and various primates, because they look like us. I attempted to interject that there were many other animals outside the Top Ten lists that showed quite a bit of specialized adaptation, some of it remarkable in its complexity and bordering on what many people would term intelligence. Unfortunately, as most 'animals are people too' debates go, it devloved into an excercise to determine the worth of various animals by whether or not they can be taught to sign after being stripped from their natural environment and caged up.

It is entirely possible that you, Potato, and I all share a similar goal. I would like for everyone to recognize that non-human species have value outside of the economy. They, like us, have an ecological niche to fill. The chimp exists to feed the cheetah. The cheetah exists to control the chimp population. Neither exists to stack boxes in cages and the worth of neither should be based on their ability to do so. Just because one will come when you call it 'Koko' means nothing.


animals (none / 0) (#129)
by PotatoError on Mon Feb 18th, 2002 at 09:05:57 PM PST
I dont particulaly care about animals. I just belive that its foolish to assume that certain species of animals dont possess free will. After all there is no evidence that they dont. Thats the key - no evidence.
So for an animal so similar and directly related to us as chimps, its remarkable that we automatically assume chimps to be hugely different from us.
Because thats what it is - saying humans have free will and chimps dont implies a huge difference.
Every other proved difference between humans and chimps is tiny in comparison.
You see why I think its such a strange assumption to make?

If people had always assumed chimps to have free will from the start and I was a lone person on this site arguing that they dont have free will would I really win easily?
More likely people would argue the other side just as effectively as you are now.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

 
If humans didnt have hands... (none / 0) (#103)
by PotatoError on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 02:49:46 PM PST
...how would we make tools?

Its good to be sceptical but its not good to have a closed mind.

First that research I pointed to where the apes stacked boxes and constructed sticks was done in the 1920's - maybe u noticed the photos were black and white. This was a time where there was no agenda to be had. It was pure scientific research. An ape joined to sticks together to make an extended stick without being told how! if that isnt making tools what is? Apes stacked up crates to allow them to reach food - again if that isnt construction of a tool then what is?

Wont you be satisfied until they invent the wheel?

Why are you so adament that because apes cant make complex tools they dont possess free will?
That they cant make as complex tools as humans is down to intelligence and you've already stated that intelligence doesnt equal free will.

Chimps are more like humans than like other animals. Do you disagree with this?

Thousands of years ago there were two species of human - do you believe the other species didnt possess free will?

One more question. If you believe that free will only exists in humans would you change your mind if we found a highly intelligent alien species elsewhere in the universe? and how would you react if they thought we were stupid creatures who didnt have free will?
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

No. (none / 0) (#109)
by tkatchev on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 09:43:16 PM PST
Look, apes only make tools insofar as they need tools for survival -- i.e. if they want a banana, for example.

Humans make tools simply for the sake of making tools -- it's no different from art.


--
Peace and much love...




oh come on (none / 0) (#112)
by PotatoError on Mon Feb 18th, 2002 at 06:08:25 AM PST
"apes only make tools insofar as they need tools for survival"

You think early humans made tools for fun?

Maybe apes arent intelligent enough to make tools on a level you find acceptable but like you said intelligence doesnt equal free will. Therefore that they cant make tools to the same level as us doesnt reflect that they have no free will.

Some humans are mentally handicapped and could never make tools - doesnt mean they dont have free will does it?


<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

 
More (none / 0) (#114)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Feb 18th, 2002 at 06:49:59 AM PST
If humans didnt have hands......how would we make tools?

So, by your logic, chimps should have produced twice as many tools as humans, given that they have four opposable thumbs. Their world should look something like a Jetsons cartoon by now.

This was a time where there was no agenda to be had.

Yeah.

Chimps are more like humans than like other animals. Do you disagree with this?

If by 'more like' you mean that we share many morphological characteristics..

Thousands of years ago there were two species of human -

No, although maybe you need to clarify. The early Homo species (we are Homo sapeins) most likely evolved from fossils of the genus Australopithecus. Australopithecus is split into two types, gracile and robust, the gracile are probably our direct ancestors. Your post might be referring to these two 'species of human', although you would be incorrect is using those terms, two species of ape would be more correct. Your timeline is also a bit off as Homo habilis shows up in the fossil record around 2.5 million years ago. Maybe you were referring to the later descendants of Australopithecus, Homo erectus and Homo neanderthalensis, who appear about 300,000 years ago. If so, please discuss their respective differences and the reasons why one of them longer exists, and also show that free will was not a matter of importance between the two.

If you believe that free will only exists in humans would you change your mind if we found a highly intelligent alien species elsewhere in the universe?

I would probably not change my mind unless, in addition to being intelligent, they also demonstrated free will.

would you react if they thought we were stupid creatures who didnt have free will?

I would probably argue with them I guess. I really haven't spent much time thinking about that one (probably because I am not a fan of sci-fi) and I am not sure why anyone would bother to do so.


 
Further (none / 0) (#94)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 08:03:50 AM PST
So why are you making a special exception of one trait - free will?

You don't seem to grasp the importance of free will.

Almost everything humans can do, chimpanzees can do but on a simpler level.

No. Do chimpanzees make tools? Not use them, make them? I'm not talking about lab chimps who mimic their handlers, I'm talking about chimps in the wild.

are you scared that the specialness of humanity would be eroded slightly?

Not at all. I would like nothing more than for the for the inexhaustible supply of buffoons who live a life that is entirely insulated from the realities of nature to gain just a little more respect for wild animals. Maybe enough for them to stop trying to make them more endearing to the public by seeing how many human traits they can ascribe them.

Apes playing isnt anything to do with practice.

Yes it is.

They arent preditors.

That doesn't matter one whit. I gave you examples of non-predators that practice survival skills. I can give you a hundred more that I have personally observed in animals from the African plains to the circumpolar tundra.

If it was a purely suvival based game then you would expect it to end after many generations of captivity.

I think you have a poor understanding of the pace at which natural selection results in changes in animals.

Give me ONE thing that humans can do that hasnt been exhibited on a basic level by chimpanzees.

I did that already, tkatchev gave you an even better one.

so you and tkatchev DO disagree on something

Did you fail to read the entire quote or do you just not understand it?


 
I can't force myself to read it. (none / 0) (#4)
by tkatchev on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 12:02:39 AM PST
(It's too long)

But, one small nitpick: please don't use the word love as it is completely meaningless.

"Love" can be anything from "I've got spermotoxicosis, so I'm ready to have sex with a farm animal" to "I really like eating potato salad".

At the very leat, specify whether by "love" you mean "lust" or "friendship". If you mean "lust", then sorry to dissappoint you -- lust has a very insignificant role in determining human behaviour.


--
Peace and much love...




burn you flaming liberal! (nt) (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 01:25:29 AM PST



Liberal? (none / 0) (#6)
by tkatchev on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 02:01:52 AM PST
You might as well call me a communist, while you're at it.


--
Peace and much love...




 
good point (none / 0) (#7)
by PotatoError on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 02:56:45 AM PST
yea, thats a good point about love. I kept using "the type of love that..."
I tried to distinguish between love felt between two mates and love felt between parent and offspring but I ended up confusing myself too. Both are really love but both are different (i think). I agree that lust is different from love and I tried to make sure I wasnt talking about lust because as you said it isnt very significant.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

Query (none / 0) (#31)
by hauntedattics on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 04:10:40 PM PST
Given that you had such a rough time distinguishing among the various types of love, isn't it time to rethink the notion that love and hate are "basic" emotions?



no (none / 0) (#37)
by PotatoError on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 09:45:27 PM PST
The word love seems to cover more than 1 emotion. thats the problem. As I have said, the feeling of love between two mates is different that paternal love. Noone would argue that paternal love was complex at all. And I cant see understand that just because humans can make weird choices of mates this makes this form of love complicated. Its still very basic - a feeling for someone you want to be with, a selection of a mate. Just as an intelligent enough animal would do. It doesnt matter how we pick that mate..all animals will do it differently.
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Where to start... (none / 0) (#107)
by hauntedattics on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 04:14:03 PM PST
Noone would argue that paternal love was complex at all.

I'd challenge you to say that to any father you know, and get a positive (or even not entirely incredulous) response. There is more to paternal love than just supporting one's child physically so it survives...for human beings. This seems to be where you are not grasping the difference between people and animals.

And I cant see understand that just because humans can make weird choices of mates this makes this form of love complicated. Its still very basic - a feeling for someone you want to be with, a selection of a mate.

Have you ever actually been in a long-term, committed relationship?!?? Based on this sentence, apparently not. Marriage and other committed relationships are based on a complex interplay of values and emotions and are built, sometimes excruciatingly, over a period of time. I didn't just get a whiff of my husband's pheromones (sp?) in a bar and instinctively decide that he was the best genetic hope for my offspring to survive.




objection (none / 0) (#108)
by PotatoError on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 07:52:38 PM PST
"There is more to paternal love than just supporting one's child physically so it survives...for human beings."

Its amazing how you claim to be know for sure how animals think and feel. We cant have a clue how other animals think because we're human - so how can you even make that statement?
Instead we must use observed evidence to back up either side and there is a very large ammount of evidence showing that animals probably feel emotions just as humans do.

I dont believe there is a clear line between humans and animals as you are implying. I believe there is a spread - chimpanzees are much more like humans than sheep for example. If an alien race visited this planet would they really decide that humans have free will but chimps dont? More likely they would find us hard to distinguish other than intelligence.

You only say that humans have free will because you are human and observe that you have free will.
You cant possibly know without evidence whether a chimp has free will or not. And this evidence just doesnt exist. With so many similarities between us and chimps we must assume that they do also have free will like us. It would be strange to assume that they are different in this one respect when they are so similar in many others.
It should be the norm to assume that they do possess free will and the work should be to prove that they dont.

Marriage and other committed relationships are just creations of our society not a trait of the individual human. 2000 years ago there was no such thing as marriage - further back and there was no such thing as relationships. Hardly a special trait - more likely it was developed like our technology was developed.

Amazing that you think animals "get a whiff of pheromones and instinctively decide the best genetic hope for their offspring to survive.". How do you know this? how do you possibly know how animals think and feel?
In fact Chimpanzees dont emit pheromones - just like humans. Yet another of a seemingly million similarities. They must rely on something other than "instinctive decision" to find a mate.










<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

What?! (none / 0) (#110)
by tkatchev on Sun Feb 17th, 2002 at 09:48:06 PM PST
"Marriage is a creation of our society"?

Grow up, dude. You're laughable.


--
Peace and much love...




huh? (none / 0) (#111)
by PotatoError on Mon Feb 18th, 2002 at 06:05:24 AM PST
u think marriage is a human instinct??

Where did the idea of marriage come from? Rules about how we should live our lives. Where did these rules come from? We made them up - society made them up - society created the idea of marriage.
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You are right. (none / 0) (#44)
by tkatchev on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 10:35:47 PM PST
You are absolutely right -- potato is just confusing linguistics with biology.

"Love" is a basic emotion only in the sense that it's a word that is used to build other, very complex linguistic constructions that describe emotions. This doesn't mean, however, that biologically "love" is more important than any other emotion.


--
Peace and much love...




 
but, (none / 0) (#10)
by fzr on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 05:19:04 AM PST
human behaviour is logical but too complex for us to ever be able to predict.

Humans predict human behavior to a high degree of accuracy all the time.


ahh (none / 0) (#11)
by PotatoError on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 05:44:21 AM PST
bet you didnt predict that I was going to do this:


mwhahahahahaha ahahhaahahah hahahhahhh hahhahhhhh flflflflfflpflflfalalP :P :P :O :D :) :O :O
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

 
So? (none / 0) (#12)
by tkatchev on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 05:46:40 AM PST
Nobody in their right mind[1] would claim that humans are logical creatures.

You see, logic is easy -- it's the most primitive form of thought. Even a single-celled organism knows how to optimize the input-output conditions of energy consumption.

Learning to think irrationally, on the other hand, is among the things that really separate us from the lower animals. Only a human being can derive pleasure from "Limp Bizkit", for example.

[1] I'm not counting software g**ks, for obvious reasons.


--
Peace and much love...




 
Not very well thought out. (none / 0) (#13)
by derek3000 on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 06:25:11 AM PST
So I conclude that human emotion and behaviour is in no way a unique ability and that many other animals share our most valued emotions.

I really hope that you're a vegetarian.

That human behaviour is logical but too complex for us to ever be able to predict.

Earlier in your diary you said that we could, and used the example of weather to back it up!




----------------
"Feel me when I bring it!" --Gay Jamie

look... (none / 0) (#15)
by PotatoError on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 08:17:50 AM PST
The difference between us and animals is intelligence. Our most valued emotion seems to be love. I argue that a lot of animals must feel this emotion. It doesnt make me feel bad about eating them however - they arent part of my species - they have less rights in our society.

Theres a difference between something being predictable and actually being able to predict something.
I used the weather as an example - the weather is predictable but the climate is so complex that we cant do it 100% accurately and never will be able to.

I make the same argument with human behaviour - that it is possible to predict it but we would never be able to get all the information required to make that prediction. by information i mean the exact state of mind of the given person and every variable existing in the environment around them.

An almighty being - such as god would be able to know all this information and so would be able to predict human behaviour.

So human behaviour is predictable - deterministic but we, ourselves are too simple to be able to predict it.
<<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

It's my turn to be the bike cop. (none / 0) (#16)
by derek3000 on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 11:17:51 AM PST
The difference between us and animals is intelligence. Our most valued emotion seems to be love. I argue that a lot of animals must feel this emotion. It doesnt make me feel bad about eating them however - they arent part of my species - they have less rights in our society.

I think a lot of people would feel differently about eating animals if they knew they experienced emotions. What you are suggesting is that it is acceptable to kill a sentiet (and emotionally intelligent) being and eat it. I wouldn't mind having you over for dinner. Also, you state that they feel emotions, but they aren't intelligent. Does anyone else see a problem with this?




----------------
"Feel me when I bring it!" --Gay Jamie

Animal emotions (none / 0) (#17)
by The Mad Scientist on Fri Feb 15th, 2002 at 11:54:42 AM PST
I think a lot of people would feel differently about eating animals if they knew they experienced emotions.

Circuits for emotions are located in limbic area of the brain. It is possible to trigger some emotions only by electrical stimulation of the brain in this area. Because the construction details of human and animal brains are strikingly similar, and because of some related experiments, I consider it strong indication that animals have emotions.

What you are suggesting is that it is acceptable to kill a sentiet (and emotionally intelligent) being and eat it.

In some cultures it is acceptable to kill and eat members of other tribes.