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Poll
Britain should join the Euro
Never. 34%
When the "Five Economic Criteria" are Met. 11%
When the "Five Economic Criteria" have been comprehensively fudged. 8%
Right now. Throw caution to the wind. Live dangerously. 25%
Now, or else be forced to join at gunpoint some time later. 2%
What are you talking about ? Why should I care about this crap ? 17%

Votes: 35

 Great Britain must keep the pound.

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Jan 07, 2002
 Comments:
"Make no mistake, my colleagues, not all coups are accompanied by the sound of marching boots and rolling tanks. Some, like today, are wrapped in a constitutional veneer, softened by pious assertions of solemn obligation and duty, but the result is the same: defiance of the public will and rejection of the regular political process."
---Representative Nita Lowey, Democrat from New York, 1998

Two different geographical regions. Two different ideologies

Europe. Birthplace of Socialism, Fascism and Naziism.

Great Britain. Birthplace of Human Rights and a thousand year old currency.

So far, just the facts. Nothing controversial there. But wait! For several years now, the incompetent corrupt fraudulent bureaucrats and politicians in Europe have been planning an economic coup d'etat against the British state. The aim is to destroy Britain's ancient constitution and democracy and replace it with a half-baked Socialist/Fascist hybrid. In addition, British people will be forced to subsidise foreign senior citizens who did not invest in a private pension, in a one-sided version of Socialism. They also risk conscription into a new European Army.

This can not and must not be allowed to happen.

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There's an old saying which goes: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Even an economic simpleton can see that British Pound ain't broke so why oh why oh why do they persist in trying to "fix" it ?

Most people in Britain have more important things to worry about than the Euro.
Propaganda from the EU has been aimed at brainwashing the British public into accepting a total subjugation of their soverignity. Fortunately it does not seem to be working. Despite being ridiculed by their so called continental friends as 'little Englanders' or 'Island Monkeys' most British people are not against Europe. They merely do not wish to be ruled by it.

Opposition to this stealth takeover has so far been weak. Britain must now stop trying to ignore or appease this threat from abroad. And its no good them waiting for the US to bail them out like we did twice before. The time has come for decisive action, not fine words. Britain must withdraw from the EU completely.

The economic arguments against Britain's ongoing EU membership are incontrovertable. The 'one size fits all' approach to interest rates has been thoroughly discredited. The political arguments for her staying in are just so much hot air. The idea that joining the Euro is somehow inevitable is simply laughable. That the "debate" takes place with such facile arguments it testament to the skill with which the real reasons for Britain joining the Euro have been hidden: Europe (and by extension the Euro) is about the projection of collective power: the power of unaccountable elites over ordinary people. The Euro is a weapon against the United States. Europe wants to be a superpower, a federal superstate under Franco-German hegemony, and will let nothing stand in her way.

Of course, if such a superstate emerges, an independent Britain would be useful from an American perspective, since historically we have always been able to rely on her to act as an airstrip whenever it has been necessary. Unlike the lukewarm support we get from other NATO countries. But then again, I find myself wondering, do we as Americans really care about what goes on in Europe any more ? Should we allow Great Britain entry to NAFTA ? Or is it time America returned to the good old days of isolationism

The debate on this very important 'hot button' subject has been stifled in the UK. Perhaps the controversy is too much for the governing classes to handle. Thank goodness for the English there's somewhere they can express an opinion without being censored. What do you think about this issue ? Or are you one of the 80% of Americans who does not hold a passport and does not care what happens in the rest of the world ?

"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way."
-- Franklin D Roosevelt

       
Tweet

Britain should remain true unto itself (4.00 / 2) (#4)
by motherfuckin spork on Mon Jan 7th, 2002 at 10:00:35 AM PST
The Isles have always held a unique place in the greater scheme of Europe, and I would be greatly disheartened if it were to change. There is no reason compelling enough to cause England to drop its heritage and traditions just to be more like the mainland. Currency and overall economics are no different. If the Pound were to disappear, it would be a tragic mistake.


I am not who you think I am.

 
Sir Jammy Fishpaste (none / 0) (#5)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jan 7th, 2002 at 10:28:29 AM PST
Britain must withdraw from the EU completely.

Ah! Sir James Goldsmith! I thought you were dead! How nice to meet you in this fine talking shop.


 
Preposterous (1.50 / 2) (#7)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jan 7th, 2002 at 12:07:20 PM PST
Either I am particularly stupid or this is a joke. The above article is so filled with holes as to be almost unreadable and I must say that any reasonable individual should be able to realise that you have failed to comprehend the issue at hand.

You have a reasonable suggestion, that Britain should keep the pound, and for a simple person that might seem like a good idea at first, however, further analysis will show otherwise.

As a top financial adviser for a large American Corporation I feel qualified to take some time out to help you realise the error of your ways.

It is clear to anyone studying the situation that British economic policy is doomed to failure, the Marxist economic policies of the Labour government are no better than the fascist dictatorship imposed by the previous administration. Consider Black Wednesday of 5 years ago when the value of the pound was devalued by 35% in a period of 24 hours, this kind of debacle is guaranteed to occur again unless drastic changes occur, and soon. Some simple research at any financial resource will show that the value of the pound has devalued against the dollar and is continuing it's downward slide even as we speak leading to possibly catastrophic circumstances.

The fact of the matter is the British are too damn stupid to handle their own economic matters. They must subject themselves to rulership by the federal government of Europe to save themselves from certain economic doom.

Thank you


Black Wednesday (5.00 / 1) (#13)
by dmg on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 04:07:48 AM PST
Black Wednesday was caused by Britain attempting to stay within the boundaries set by her ERM membership. Once she was free to set her interest rates according to the needs of the economy, Britain started booming again

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

Sir, (none / 0) (#14)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 04:56:32 AM PST
Your support of the strong Pound is worrying. This one thing is driving foreign investors out of Britain in droves, and one thing Britain needs is foreign investment -- if you don't believe me, look at the Southern states of the USA. Inbred currency is funny money, make no mistake.


Let's allow the facts to speak for themselves. (5.00 / 1) (#15)
by dmg on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 05:13:00 AM PST
Mr Anonymous Reader. I can see why you choose to remain anonymous, holding such unpatriotic ideas as you do, but lets take a closer look at the facts, perhaps you can be persuaded to think again!

Let's take Britain's international trade as a whole (visibles plus invisibles). Over 50% is with the rest of the world outside the EU, and it's profitable. Much of our trade with the EU is simply due to geographical closeness - in previous centuries over 70% was with our neighbours. Over 85% of our economy is trade within the UK or with non-EU countries.

If we left the EU, we would be protected by World Trade Organisation (GATT) agreements, which have been bringing trade barriers down for forty years.

Switzerland has prospered without ever being in the EU. Like her, we could negotiate a free-trade agreement with the EU. The cash-strapped continental economies would not cut off one of their largest markets.

Here are some more facts about Britain and the Euro:
  • Joining the euro would cost 36 billion pounds - money that would be better spent on schools and hospitals.

  • The unemployment rate in Euroland is twice that in Britain. British unemployment is at its lowest for 20 years.

  • Euroland countries have not paid for their pensions. Britain has more money invested in pension schemes than the rest of Europe put together.

  • Euroland taxes are a sixth higher than in Britain.

  • Britain is the fourth largest economy in the world.

    British Citizens have the following choice :
    Live in a Euroregion of a Federal EU dictated to by an unelected Commission in Brussels
    OR
    Live in a Free and Independent Great Britain governed by our own parliament

    There are no other choices WE MUST WITHDRAW FROM THE EU NOW

    time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
    -- MC Hawking

  • I am indeed persuaded (none / 0) (#17)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 05:27:56 AM PST
    for your case of remaining outwith the eurozone, but my concern was more for the strong Pound. As you know, many Far East and American companies have made substantial investments in the UK and its people, but the strength of the Pound makes their investment seem diminished to us, and overbearing to them.

    A switch to a much weaker currency, whether through the euro or other means, would bring about greater support for Britain from our Asian/American friends.


    The "strong" pound. (none / 0) (#21)
    by dmg on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 05:55:13 AM PST
    I don't see what else the British Government can do to reduce the "strength" of the pound. Interest rates are as low as they have been for 30 years, and any increase in the money supply risks the creation of excessive inflationary pressure.

    And if these companies were that worried about the "strength" of the pound, they would not have invested in the first place. Or they would have put some sort of derivative financial instrument in place to remove the risk.

    The best thing their Government could do for foreign investors would be to announce that they plan to renegotiate the terms of their EU membership, and that they do not intend to join the single European currency.

    This would indicate Britain's intention to remain a low-tax, high employment country, in full control of her economic destiny, something investors would be pleased to hear.

    time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
    -- MC Hawking

     
    You prove my point (none / 0) (#25)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 08:17:50 AM PST
    So, if I am not mistaken your point is that the British economy suffered due to the financial administration of the time attempting to do something impossible (or stupid, whatever you want to call it). The result of their incompetence? An economic crash the likes of which Britain had not seen since the early 20s.


     
    A voice of sense (none / 0) (#33)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jan 11th, 2002 at 06:33:23 PM PST
    >>The fact of the matter is the British are too damn stupid to handle their own economic matters. They must subject themselves to rulership by the federal government of Europe to save themselves from certain economic doom<<

    Damn right.

    To all the "trouble-makers" out there ;) , you do realise that a single currency would:

    1)Screw the banks income from money exchange and let you keep a little extra in your pocket. Then again, if you're so narrow minded that you want to sit on this stupid rock forever, I guess you don't need to worry about that.

    2)Allow you to go to France and Germany and purchase a mortgage at a much lower rate (another reason the banks here don't like the Euro). Think what this will do for economic growth.

    3)Encourage economic growth. You think that companies aren't going to elsewhere in the EU if they don't have to lose money on exchange rates.

    Let me ask you this. Why, if the Euro is such a disaster, are 90% of the countries joining it? You saying that they're willing to play dice and destroy their economies?

    As for the inital post. Human rights? Where did we just get out human rights from? The EU. We didn't have any until a year ago. What about labour laws? Division of wealth? 1000 year currency? Look at where is was 50 years ago and look at it now. Its a disaster. It may have been ok in the past, but its like the rest of this country, a bloody train-wreck. I don't think any other country in the western world (not that we should include ourselves in this group, since we're 2nd from bottom in the EU quality of life index) has seen such devaluation of the period.

    That's all in layman's terms for you guys who seem to incapable of uttering more than a few incoherent sentences at a time. I'll tell you one thing, if we don't join full steam ahead, I, along with every other person that is trying to keep this place together, am going to leave. Head over to the mainland we're at least their trying to build a civilisation.


    Sorry, but that's just bollocks. (none / 0) (#36)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jan 12th, 2002 at 11:30:49 AM PST
    Britain is the world's 4th largest economy. We trade with the world, not just some poxy bunch of cowards and idiots on the European peninsula. We (in England at least) are bigger than that. We've kicked ass for the last 400+ years and don't need a bunch of whining European losers telling us how to run our own damned country.

    Europe is fundamentally socialist and sees the EU as a great means to shaft America and impose protectionist laws across the continent.

    As for being small minded, the whole European adventure in incredibly small-minded. Makes me wonder what World War 2 was fought for. The Germans get what they want, European dominance. The French got what they deserve, German dominance. I hope the Germans find out what we did, that Empires are bloody expensive to run and ultimately bring economic ruin to the Imperial Power itself.

    The EU (or whatever it calls itself this week) is a dumb ass Franco-German pipe dream. The EU is a bureaucrat's wet dream, an insane Tower of Babel that is doomed to fail. I just hope traitors and Quislings like Ted Heath are still alive to see the day. Britain would never have voted to join if the true federalist facts hadn't been concealed back in the mid 1970s. Don't forget that any one under the age of about 45 now wasn't old enough to vote then anyway. I never got a vote and that pisses me off.

    The reason that "90%" of European countries are in the Euro is that their public were not consulted. The people who were asked (only because the authorities thought they knew the answer), Denmark, soundly rejected the Euro despite a heavily pro-Euro government, press and trades unions. In a classic example of Euro-Fascism, the Danish govnt is planning to have another referendum in 2003. They will keep trying until they get the answer they want. Disgraceful.

    I think the sudden rush to complete the Euro and other federalist programs now is because the old men who are pushing for it are getting on and want to see their names in the History books before they die.

    I can't wait for the first EU country - sorry, region - to suffer a really bad recession. The one-size-fits-all interest rate is the dumbest European idea since the invasion of Russia (the one in 1941). We'll see how chummy they all are then.

    The EU has (as usual) fudged the rules and allowed countries like Italy, Greece and even Germany in to the Euro. None of these would have qualified on merit via the economic entry restrictions. The only country that could was, ironically, Britain. They may be able to fool the press, but they can't fool the money markets. The Euro has lost a quarter of its value since it was launched 3 years ago. The release of real money on new years day was supposed to boost the flagging currency. Has It? No, actually its dropped more. Ha! Good! Meanwhile, the borrowing rate in the UK is the lowest since the early sixties.

    I think that there are problems with our system here, but the 'communism-lite' from Brussels is NOT the answer. To hell with it all. Poor old America and Britain will have to save Europe from itself once again.

    Will they never learn?

    I say we pull out now. Without the stupid choking web of bureaucracy and rules, we could crush Europe economically and show them who's boss too.

    Dumb ass liberals like you should be ashamed of yourselves. But then, since the collapse of the Soviet Union I suppose you need someone else to sell your country down the river to.



    Start making sense (5.00 / 1) (#37)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jan 12th, 2002 at 12:37:54 PM PST
    You're talking out of your rear-end. Its clear you have no idea what's going on politically or economically. I'd suggest you go back to school, but then you probably wouldn't learn anything there anyway.

    Speaking of Facism and bringing up Denmark really isn't a good idea. That country has one of the highest number of far right-supporters in the EU.

    Our borrowing rates are a disgrace compared to German or French levels.

    As for Britain saving Europe, don't make me laugh. You're living in the past, mate. We're nothing. Our economy is certainly NOT the 4th largest in the world (where are you pulling this bullshit out of?). Here are some FACTS from the 2001 Economist World Report:

    Biggest Economies ($ GDP):

    1)US
    2)Japan
    3)Germany
    4)France
    5)UK
    6)Italy

    Biggest Economies by purchasing power

    1)US
    2)China
    3)Japan
    4)India
    5)Germany
    6)France
    7)UK
    8)Italy

    Living Standards:

    1)Luxembourg
    2)Switzerland
    3)Bermuda
    4)Norway
    5)Denmark
    6)Japan
    7)Singapore
    8)US
    9)Iceland
    10)Austria
    11)Germany
    12)Sweden
    13)Belgium
    14)Netherlands
    15)finland
    16)France
    17)Hong Kong
    18)UK

    Biggest Traders (% of world exports)

    1)EU
    2)US
    3)Germany
    4)Japan
    5)UK

    Lowest Inflation

    26)France and Sweden
    30)Austria and Germany
    38)Luxembourg
    39)Belgium
    41)Finland
    45)Ireland and the UK

    Industrial, manufacturing and service output we're 5th. We're extremely energy inefficient (while 5/10 of the most efficient come from the Euro Zone). We're ranked 15th in global competitiveness (Netherlands is 4th, Luxembourh 6th, Ireland 7th, German 8th, Sweden 9th). Our health spending isn't even in the league for the greatest spenders and we come in at a disgraceful 46th for number of beds (i won't disturb you by telling you who is above us). We do have the 6th highest cost of living though (only Norway is higher than us).

    Our main orgins of imports are from:

    Germany 16%
    US 13.3%
    France 9.3%
    Netherlands 7.1%
    Italy 5.1%
    EU15 53.3%

    And our exports are:

    US 13.3%
    Germany 12.4%
    France 9.9%
    Netherlands 7.8%
    Ireland 5.7%
    EU15 57.5

    Which moron was it who claimed 85% of our trade is outside the EU?

    This is nothing. I can bring up report after report showing how we fail in areas against the Euro Zones. The only reason we rank anywhere in any chart is because of our past, but that's disappearing. We can't send off our stupid Queen to win us more contracts exploiting Third World regions for much longer. People are going to get fed up with us soon, and too right, especially with the high and mighty attitude that most of you seem to take. We're not the US.


     
    Actually... (none / 0) (#55)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 10:25:32 AM PST
    If I remember correctly, Denmark was the best qualified to join. Besides, how can Denmark be considered faschistic for holding referendums - if the majority wants to join, they join. If they don't that's fine but people can change their minds later if they see fit. In fact, Denmark's consistently held referendums on almost all major European treaties...


    For your information... (none / 0) (#59)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 12:24:16 PM PST
    Denmark has one of the highest number of far-right supporters in the EU, and thus it was ironic of the writer to use it as an example "beacon" of democracy, that was merely the point I was making. I was not implying that he government was a dictatorship.


    A few quick points (none / 0) (#64)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 02:45:53 AM PST
    I think you're probably referring to the Danish Peoples Party recent gains in the last election. The DPP campaigns strongly on an anti-immigration platform just as the (IMHO equally nasty) British Tory party did in the last British general election. The difference here is that the Danes use a system of proportional representation while the Brits have first-past-the-post (which means that parties like the DPP get a more representative proportion of votes than say the NF do in the UK).

    Note that both the DPP and the Tories are anti-Euro.

    Certainly the Danes have had nothing like last summers race riots in Bradford, Oldham and Burnley.


    I'm not implying... (none / 0) (#67)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 08:29:13 AM PST
    I'm not implying that Denmark is populated entirely by facists or that they even make up a huge part of the political climate, but the element is there and it is one of the strongest in Europe (membership/supporter wise). I was simply pointing out the irony.


     
    Ah, yes. Absolute democracy. (none / 0) (#61)
    by RobotSlave on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 03:36:43 PM PST
    Yes, indeed, if the majority wants it, then it must be the right thing, eh? Especially when a majority decides that certain minorities ought to be compelled to wear special identifying patches on their coats, or contained behind barbed wire, or simply slaughtered like diseased cattle.

    Lovely thing, majority rule. No room for evildoers when the majority is in charge! All hail the majority! Death to opponents of the majority! Four legs good, two legs bad! Kill the pig! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!


    © 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

    Hmm... (none / 0) (#63)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 02:18:04 AM PST
    "Denmark was the only occupied country that actively resisted the Nazi regime's attempts to deport its Jewish citizens. On September 28, 1943, Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, a German diplomat, secretly informed the Danish resistance that the Nazis were planning to deport the Danish Jews. The Danes responded quickly, organizing a nationwide effort to smuggle the Jews by sea to neutral Sweden."

    from: www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/denmark.html


    Oh, I see. (none / 0) (#68)
    by RobotSlave on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 11:25:49 AM PST
    So as long as the majority is Danish, the majority is right. Boy, that sure wrecks my argument!

    My guess is that rather than respond to the forgoing, you will waste time trying to weasle your way around the following facts: it was the Danish resistance that helped the Danish jews; they acted on good intelligence that other resistance movements lacked; and it is ludicrous to suggest that other resistance movements did not help jews escape Nazi persecution.


    © 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

    Eh? (none / 0) (#76)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 04:29:42 AM PST
    I really don't know what you mean by your first point. You seem to be arguing against self-determination?

    For your second point however, I won't waste anyones time 'weasle'ing around your points. I will just point out the truth - that the Danes as a whole and not just members of the resistance helped the jewish population. Do a search on Google and read up on the matter. Also, I never suggested that other occupied nations did not help the Jews (you're right in that it would be ludicrous (and also pretty rude) to do so) - I just quoted from an article that pointed out that Denmark did it better than most in response to an article claiming that Denmark is a racist state.


    Denmark Uber Alles! (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by RobotSlave on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 01:04:19 PM PST
    There is no glory greater than the glory of Denmark! Behold the master race, the Danes! The majority is right, when the majority is Danish!

    You didn't understand my first point? I shouldn't be surprised, given your disturbing semi-autistic inability to pay attention to anything that doesn't heap praise on Denmark.

    My point, the only point that I have tried to make in this by now worthless exchange, is that rule by the majority is a very bad idea. If I'd known that it would end in a pointless debate with a crazed Danish Nationalist, I would have left it alone.

    Go decry mermaid statue vandals, or eat chocolate cheese, or design furniture, or whatever it is that you Danish apologists do these days. I'm done wasting literary allusion on the likes of you.


    © 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

    Basic principle (none / 0) (#93)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jan 18th, 2002 at 03:24:05 AM PST
    OK, I'm sorry if I'm being a bit slow here, but that's the second or third time you've alluded to majority rule being a -bad thing-. Yes, the majority can make bad decisions, but that is the chance that society takes when they implement a democratic system. Look at the US ;)

    What do you suggest as an alternative?

    PS. It's difficult to be a "Danish Nationalist" as a Brit, and your "literary allusions" merely show that you've read a couple of high school syllabus books.


    "A bit slow?" (none / 0) (#95)
    by RobotSlave on Fri Jan 18th, 2002 at 04:14:15 PM PST
    More like completely thick, I'd say.

    I guess the themes of those "high school syllabus" books were too complex for you to grasp, then? Care to comment on the nationality of the authors? Hmm?

    And while we're discussing nationality, what's so difficult about being a Danish Nationalist in Britain? Is it fatal? Are there no Zionists in New York? Are there no Nazis in Idaho? Are there no Irish Nationalists in London?

    You want alternatives to absolute majority rule? How about representative democracy, or a republic? How about enlightened despotism? Perhaps you would prefer a mix of monarchy and democracy? There are plenty of alternatives. In fact, I think you'll find that just about every "democracy" on the planet has provisions in place to prevent or curtail the tyranny of the majority. Or did they not teach you such things when you were muddling through your own "high school syllabus?"

    If you have any interest at all in getting back to the original issue here, then perhaps you would you care to tell us all what provisions are in place to prevent a tyranny of the majority in the event of that Danish vote that you mentioned, lo these many posts ago?


    © 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

    last post (1.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jan 20th, 2002 at 01:13:43 PM PST
    Really, if you can't argue a (non-existant it seems) point without becoming so emmotive I suggest you find another site to post to.

    Now, I didn't say "Danish Nationalist in Britain", I said Brit. The fact that I defended Denmark on the grounds of their help for the Jewish people during WWII does not make me a nationalist, it just shows that I know a little history. If someone had written something against US citizens which I could disagree with on the grounds of historical fact I would have done the same.

    Next point - majority rule IS democracy. Take a look at Lockes Treatises on Government for a good definition (he's a Brit too donch know).

    To sum up, I believe that all of my points remain standing. Thankyou and goodnight. <APPLAUSE>


    Sorry, but you won't get the last word that easily (none / 0) (#100)
    by RobotSlave on Sun Jan 20th, 2002 at 02:24:44 PM PST
    Who's being "emotive," Mr. Brit? Are you familiar with Freud's theory of "projection?" You're not doing much to break the stereotype of the British Man Terrified Of Emotion, are you?

    Did I ever say that "democracy" could not be defined as "majority rule?" No. I have, instead, repeatedly and consistently argued against absolute democracy. If you "know a little history," then I'm sure you're familiar with the fact that Mr. Hitler was elected by a majority. Somehow, this does nothing to sway you from your slavish devotion to "majority rule" and "democracy."

    Given the propaganda that most school-children are exposed to, I'm not especially surprised to find that you feel threatened when Great Holy Democracy is questioned, but I thought you might at least be mature enough to debate the matter, rather than try to change the subject to the sort of trainspotting of historical minutia that you are obviously so much more comfortable with. That's a very British response, I think, and not one to be proud of.

    In sum, your "points," which have nothing to do with the question at hand, are little more than a desperate, childish effort to impress the world with the fact that you've done a bit of far from critical reading on WWII Denmark. Pathetic.

    Now then. I will repeat the question, one more time.

    What measures are in place to prevent the dangers of the tyranny of the majority in the event of a referendum on Danish adoption of the Euro?


    © 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

     
    Ahem (none / 0) (#69)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 12:25:22 PM PST
    That's a rather broad statement you're making. I didn't see anything about the nation resisting in your link, perhaps a minority of resistance fighters, yes. Don't make me bring up sources on Danish collaberation. There was a lot of support for the Nazis there.

    As for it being the only country to involve any resistance of Jewish deportation, I think you need to go and read some history books. There were movements (maybe not big, but still in existance) all over Europe, not just fighting the Nazis, but helping Jews.


    WTF (none / 0) (#77)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 04:56:28 AM PST
    OK. Go and re-read the post. It's not a statement that I'm making, it's a quote from a respected jewish source that supports my position. The quote says nothing about Denmark being the only country to resist. It says "actively resist" and later "nationwide effort". You're the one who needs to read some history books but may I suggest that you only do so after a basic literacy course.


    Ohh please (none / 0) (#78)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 04:59:55 AM PST
    Its no coincidence that two people are questioning your post. The point being made is that other nations DID in fact help Jews on the same, and much larger, scale. You're avoiding the issue here.


    Hang on a sec... (none / 0) (#81)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 07:47:32 AM PST
    I never denied that other occupied nations did help their Jewish populations, but it is well known that Denmark saved a higher proportion than most - see auschwitz.dk/Denmark.htm.


    You're digging a big whole (none / 0) (#83)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 08:21:15 AM PST
    A Danish site. Now why am I not surprised they'll claim something like that?


    Sigh (none / 0) (#87)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 09:08:28 AM PST
    http://www.google.com/search?q=denmark+jews+wwii


     
    New Labour, New Thatcherism (none / 0) (#98)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jan 19th, 2002 at 06:16:10 PM PST
    Marxist economic policies of the Labour government
    In case you hadn't noticed, New Labour economic policy is basically Thatcherism argued in the language of social justice. They clearly dont follow even basic Marxist principles, take the introduction of means testing to long term incapacity benefit. Means testing? What is this, from each according to their means to each according to need back to each according to their means? So there you have it, New Labour, New Thatcherism. You only have to turn on BBC Parliment to see that most debates over economic policy consist of some NL flunkie giving a speech whilst lots of tories jeer "we thought of that first!" across the house.

    I somehow dont think the Tories really mind that they lost so heavily in the past 2 elections, as New Labour is doing a much better job of getting the public to accept Capitalism than they ever managed to do. Here in Britain we now have 2 right wing, pro big-business parties (and the Lib Dem's the obligatory "third party"). As far as I'm concerned there is no real ideological differences between New Labour the the Conservative party, they just use different language to argue their case.

    All this is blatently obvious to anyone who's actually followed the politics in this country since 97 (and preferably before). As for the downward slide of the pound, well good. The pound is massively overvalued (at least according to some stats I saw in the economist, which I managed to lose the URL for and are in the subscriber section anyway), as is the US Dollar in fact. They could both do to lose a lot of value, and in doing so it would help boost the manufacturing base of both countries. Here in the UK manufacturing is vanishing and I dont see how Tony Blair's vision of a service economy is actually going to help anything. The UK cant survive without a strong manufacturing base as without that we wont have anything to export.

    Somehow I dont think the situation in the UK would be improved by loosing control over our interest rates. In fact, I'm fairly curious to see how the rest of Europe handles a shared interest rate. It seems to be going OK (in fact has been going OK for over a year now for major companies that have been dealing in Euros since before the mass roll out at the start of this year), but it could all still go pear shaped. Wait and see isnt such a bad policy I spose...

    --
    Nick
    Waking up at midnight to find you've just turned 20. Maaan....


     
    Britain should join the Euro (4.16 / 6) (#8)
    by bc on Mon Jan 7th, 2002 at 12:33:13 PM PST
    There is no argument against it other than the worst sort of petty nationalism and little Englandism. Why should Britain be left behind as the Continentals create a great new economic area founded on principles of Justice and Fairness? What is the pound? It is just a currency.

    Personally I would like to see the EU radically expand. The veto that each European nation holds is holding up the speed of progress, so we should get rid of it and allow the EU to expand naturally. I would be very glad if there were a single, global state with equal treatment for all and free movement of the citizens of the world, but in the meantime we have to work with what we have, and the EU is the best hope. It could be a springboard, taking Mankind beyond petty nationalism.

    The EU does have issues, such as a lack of democracy, and these really need to be sorted out. However, that is only because when the EU was founded such things were not needed, and in time they have become something of an anachronism. There has never been an 'evil plot' by groups of super eilite beaurocrats to create a fascist state. That's just scaremongering.

    The EU is by no means fascist, either. It is just an assemblage of nations who share much in common, ganging together for the common good.

    What use is there for having multiple Sovereign nations in Europe, each one barely large enough to swing a cat in, and all the tensions this would create as they are swept around on the cusp of waves of American and, later, Chinese 'interests'? Europe will be far better, wealthier, stable and democratic if it unites.

    Look at Eastern Europe. These nations, recently freed from Soviet tyranny, could have regressed into all sorts of disgusting behaviour. Instead, they have been forced to adopt such concepts as 'absolute democracy', human rights and a free press - such things are a prerequisite for EU membership. Hence the forces of democracy and equality are spreading from their heartland in Western Europe (Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite) to Eastern Europe as well.

    Once admitted, these nations are then built up by huge ingluxes of cash from the West, to build up their infrastructure and tansform them into economically modern states. Then the second wave begins. In my opinion, when Turkey cleans up its act enough for full admittance, the next wave will see Israel and several Muslim middle east countries admitted (at some stage - perhaps by the 2020's?). This will allow the Palestinian problem and issues of Islamic Fundamentalism to be resolved.

    Unlike the US, which uses Nafta as a method of enforcing economic inequality on its inferiors in South America, in the EU everyone has a say, and countries are not used as sweatshops but rather their conditions are improved.

    The Euro will eventually and inevitably become the global reserve currency. The EU is the ultimate expression of humanitarian, post enlightenment liberal thought, and long may it grow and prosper. The last thing we need is small, jealous states endlessly competing for their own interests. Hasn't dmg seen where such things lead?


    ♥, bc.

    Europe should REJECT Britain (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by priestess on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 05:25:19 AM PST
    they have been forced to adopt such concepts as 'absolute democracy', human rights and a free press - such things are a prerequisite for EU membership.
    Hummm, looks to me like Britain should leave the EU in that case, indeed the EU should force Britain out since it meets none of these criteria.
    • Absolute Democracy - 'Democratic' insitutions like the House Of Lords, The Monarchy, and the First Past The Post election systems should rule Britain out here. It's obvious that a vote in Britain, if you even get one, is useless to all but the privileged few. Even Commons MP's have very little power compared to real democracy's, Tony Blair currently has almost unlimited powers restrained only by the undemocratic House Of Lords, which he is in the process of 'reforming' to enable his own ultimate authority to override even them.
    • Human Rights - While the human rights rules were added to British law recently, the government has already indicated it's intention to 'suspend' these rights during the course of the 'war on terrorism'. Terrorism also removed the right to speech of IRA spokesmen for years in the country and the right to bare arms was removed a long time ago. Free association was removed in anti-rave legislation years back and recently the police imprisoned many protestors in central london for over eight hours with no trial and no arrest. Clearly Britain should be thrown out of the EU since it's no respecter of human rights.
    • Free Press - British press has long been censored, as mentioned earlier the IRA was refused the right to speech on television a few years ago, reporting on trials in progress is severly limited by so called sub-justice rules. Recently the Blair family forced newspapers not to print the diaries of their nanny and reporting restrictions are just about the only thing the news papers have left to report on in some cases. British press is about as free as the press in comunist Russia, the only reason the British can even get porn these days in thanks to rules imposed by the EU.
    The British are a deeply undemocratic people, used to being ruled over my a monarch elected by God rather than the falible people, their membership in the EU can only bring the great European institution down into the gutter, robbing it of democracy, sensibility and taste. I agree, get Britain out of Europe, for Europe's sake.

    Pre..........



    please oh please (none / 0) (#19)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 05:32:26 AM PST
    the right to bare arms was removed a long time ago

    ...why can't someone explain this to Pat Butcher? The world would be better off if she knew.


     
    Truly (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by bc on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 10:23:38 AM PST
    Unfortunately Britain has been in the EU for ages, and is hardly likely to be turfed out any time for such abuses. It would be interesting, if Britain were outside the EU, to see if it would meet the entrance criteria.

    The house of lords should certainly be made democratic, instead it has been turned into a house of appointees dependent on Blair and cronies. The Human Rights Act, however, will have to be fully passed at one stage or another, if the government likes it or not. It is a central plank of European legislation. It is questionable how useful it is when the government can seemingly repeal it whenever it wishes, however.

    I'd be happy if there were some sort of EU constitution with inalienable rights that every nation state wishing to remain in the EU would have to pass. Unfortunately, the UK politicians go bezerk when such things are mentioned, which is ironic, they are opposing any further democratisation of the EU and the creation of a constitution by claiming the EU is undemocratic, a seemingly circular argument.

    It is an intriguing idea to get Britain out of the EU to force the UK to get its act together though :)


    ♥, bc.

     
    Kick Us Out (none / 0) (#34)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jan 11th, 2002 at 06:37:48 PM PST
    Good point. Maybe the best option is to have us (the UK) thrown out (but not before I get another European passport). We're a pain in the arse to a group that have done their upmost to accomodate our arrogant, stupid nature.


     
    YOUR A TIT!! (none / 0) (#101)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 19th, 2002 at 04:19:25 AM PST
    And US can say it has all these qualities?! .....i didnt think so..!

    StalkS


     
    Why do you hate yourself ? (3.66 / 3) (#18)
    by dmg on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 05:29:33 AM PST
    Aha, the old 'little Englander' gambit. I am afraid that one won't wash. I suggest you read this informative article on the Psychopathology of Euro-philia by Kennith Minogue of the London School of Economics. You may recognize yourself. Here is a brief excerpt:

    Those who support the current federal direction of the institutions of Brussels talk of bringing peace to a continent long subject to destructive wars, of making Europe once more a powerful player in the world scene. Turning their attention to those who reject this policy, they first identify objections with anti-Europeanism, and then attribute a narrow, chauvinistic addiction to "Little England" as lying behind the reasons advanced by their opponents.

    time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
    -- MC Hawking

    Not Really (5.00 / 2) (#28)
    by bc on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 11:27:58 AM PST
    Given that I'm not English, it is unlikely that 'Little Englandism' and my dislike of it is due to self hatred.

    I don't have any problem with nationalism in itself - there is nothing wrong with being proud of one's nation or one's people. The problem is when nationalism depends not on a strong sense of identity, but rather the denigration of others. England has long suffered from this, as it has long subjugated its identity within a British framework. Only recently is England beginning to take stock of itself.

    The EU is not incompatible with the British (or English or Scottish) identities, and is not a threat unless you define these identities in terms of power and the weilding of power - in terms of subjugation, the Empire, and a Britain strong and Free. Unfortunately a Britain free from Europe will have much less say over its economic destiny than a Britain within Europe. The lie put worth by Eurosceptics is that Britain can be entirely independent in this global age.

    Scotland is overwhelmingly very nationalist, and yet overwhelmingly pro-European. Why is the English incarnation of Nationalism so anti-European? It can only be because it is an arrogant nationalism that defines itself in terms of power over others. This is why charges of Little Englandism are not unreasonable.

    There is no connection, on this side of the border, between self denigration and Europhilia.


    ♥, bc.

     
    Well Said (none / 0) (#32)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jan 11th, 2002 at 06:16:52 PM PST
    BC,

    Beautiful words. Fortuntely our plight is not in the hands of certain people posting here. I look forward to our entry.


     
    Who? Where? (4.00 / 2) (#9)
    by doofus on Mon Jan 7th, 2002 at 01:02:31 PM PST
    Ah, yes... Britain, that quaint, Nora Desmond-like country situated somewhere unimportant since it is not in North America.

    Perhaps it is time for all citizens of Britain (and the UK, for that matter) to accept that the world has left it behind and the only way it can catch up is to join the former Fascists and current Socialists on that insignificant little continent named after a Greek demi-God.

    After all, it was through your own military leader's incompetence that you let the only worthwhile colony slip away from you. So, please, enough whining about the evils of Euro-ization (oh, sorry, I meant "Euro-iSation"). Get on with it.

    You've had to swallow your collective pride many times before, this time is no different and no more painful.


    Eh? (none / 0) (#60)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 12:44:47 PM PST
    After all, it was through your own military leader's incompetence that you let the only worthwhile colony slip away from you

    Britain GAVE India it's independance!


     
    Rally behind the crown!!! (4.00 / 2) (#10)
    by joophy on Mon Jan 7th, 2002 at 06:26:30 PM PST
    There are somethings greater in life than currency and wealth: pride, and Britain has plenty of that, and its a characteristic they should never give up.


    30 years too late I'm afraid (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by rgb1 on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 07:55:48 AM PST
    We dropped the Crown, along with the half-crown, florin, shilling and tanner back in '71; took up with some decimal system doncha know, with only a hundred pennies in the pound.
    Hats off to the Beatles though, they saw it coming and wrote a fine song about the wonders of the currency in GB.


     
    Hear hear! (4.00 / 2) (#11)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 03:43:36 AM PST
    We must keep the Pound British. This "euro" nonsense is a ploy by Johnny Foreigner to usurp our sovereignty.

    Don't get me wrong; Europe has its place, but Britain is best with our Queen at the head of government. It simply wouldn't do to be ruled over by Germans.


    Don't forget the Maltese (none / 0) (#24)
    by rgb1 on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 08:15:45 AM PST
    Or the Egyptians, they have a pound too.
    This idea of being ruled by Germans though, given the amount of power given up by the monarchy to Parliament, back in, ooh well before I was born, is it likely we would ever be ruled by a German, should one come to the throne? And wouldn't it be more preferable to say, a Dutchman,or a citrus fruit.
    However we seem to be ruled by Celts at the moment, with hardly an Anglo-Saxon in sight, what with Robin Cook, Gordon Brown and Tony B. Liar, 5 million scots are wielding a lot of poer over 47 million Eglish


     
    no kidding (none / 0) (#27)
    by nathan on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 11:23:19 AM PST
    Look what a sad job those rotten Jerries have done thus far.

    Nathan
    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

     
    I hope you're joking. (none / 0) (#96)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jan 18th, 2002 at 05:11:22 PM PST
    You refer to the Queen as '...our Queen...' so I'm going to make the assumption that you are either British or from a Commonwealth country. As such you may need to be reminded that the British Monarchy has been "German" for almost 300 years. Starting with the Hanovers and through to the houses of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and to the present day Windsors (They changed their name back in 1917 to sound more English).

    Johnny Foreigner has been ruling England for quite some time. No point in getting all Xenophobic about it now.



     
    I don't see what the problem is (4.00 / 2) (#12)
    by T Reginald Gibbons on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 03:48:34 AM PST
    When Hawaii, Alaska and Australia were absorbed into the United States, they all adopted the dollar as their currency without protest, replacing their previous currencies or systems of barter. Why is Britain so special?


    A bit different (1.00 / 1) (#35)
    by PotatoError on Sat Jan 12th, 2002 at 05:38:19 AM PST
    Australia absorbed into the United States? Omg when did that happen lol.
    <<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

    You sir, are a fool, (none / 0) (#49)
    by Martino Cortez PhD on Mon Jan 14th, 2002 at 09:59:07 PM PST
    Again showing your lack of international knowledge, are we? That's what happens when the editors let fools like yourself post to a discussion board made up of the most elite, highest class citizens in the world.

    Sir, if you had any understanding of national politics, the former country of Austrialia™ was purchased by AOL-Timewarner™ for a paltry sum of 40 billion dollars and %25 ownership of the company. If you had been following the news instead of your ultra liberal, communist "news" you would have known about this weeks ago. As you can imagine, the issue of whether or not AOL-Timewarner-Australia™ is indeed an issue for our judicial system to decide. The main question being, does a former country once bought out by an American based multi-national corporation become a state of the United States of America?

    Fool. Don't bother replying, you have proved yourself too incompetent to answer such a pressing issue.


    --
    Dr Martino Cortez, PhD
    CEO - Martin-Cortez Financial Corporation
    Copyright 2002, Martino Cortez.

    Confused (none / 0) (#58)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 12:20:37 PM PST
    No offense, but I'm seriously confused by this post. Perhaps you could provide some links on this buy-out (sorry if I'm not up-to-date on all matters) and nothing from CNN please (I must say I found the fact that you linked it to the word "news" quite laughable).

    Thank-you.


    MOD THIS UP!!!! (none / 0) (#71)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 03:57:51 PM PST
    Wow, this is the most insightful post i've seen all day!


     
    Oh damn (none / 0) (#72)
    by PotatoError on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 05:51:36 PM PST
    I so know you are whats known as "taking the piss" now.

    So I can only assume you are also taking the piss about the who AOL owning the internet thing too and that you actually know the real truth.

    In fact I dont know if I can actually believe any of you opinions again seeing as they probably arent your opinions but just trying to wind me up.
    <<JUMP! POGO POGO POGO BOUNCE! POGO POGO POGO>>

     
    Open Question to Ecomonic Pundits (none / 0) (#22)
    by Hegemonistic on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 07:04:03 AM PST
    I'm struck by certain similarities between GB's Euro plight and the economic debacle in Argentina.

    Is there ever a proper time for a smaller economy to adopt a stronger currency?

    Would the strength of the UK economy prevent an "Argentina-like" collapse if they did "go Euro"?

    How does the formal acceptance of a different monetary standard differ from practical acceptance (i.e., even though many former Soviet Republics didn't formally accept either the U.S. Dollar or DM as their currency it become the de facto "coin of the realm".)?

    To promote my hegemonistic agenda I would appreciate all countries to accept the U.S. Dollar as the only true currency, but realise personal preferences may cloud your reasoning.

    Thanks for the international econ primer.


     
    Europe must unite to stand against the USA (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by because it isnt on Tue Jan 8th, 2002 at 07:42:33 PM PST
    My learned colleague makes many valid points, but his petty nationalism shall betray him, and it will betray us all.

    The truth is this: American Imperialism is already here, and it is destroying our beloved country.

    Britain is scarred by thousands of concentration camps, where sadistic terror-clowns poison our families and sell our children into slavery. If you try to report these criminals to your nearest policeman, he will probably arrest you, rather than apprehend these criminals. It is obvious that America has been greasing the hand of Inspector Knacker with its dirty green-backs.

    Mr DMG, you say the EU knows propaganda? Nobody knows propaganda like the USA. Lies spout from their head of state like drops of water from a gushing tap. "We only want Osama bin Laden and his supporters", "What pipeline through Afghanistan? Never heard of that.", "Yes, we'll stop funding the IRA", "Of course we'll stay with the Kyoto agreement.", "I won the election", and so on. How can we trust them to honour anything in our "special relationship"? All they do is barge in late and knock up our women. The "Airstrip One" reference is chillingly close to the truth - Britain lies on the ground and lets America run over it. Have we no self-respect?

    American Imperialism will not be pleased until the whole world becomes nothing but revenue-generating drones for American Corporations. Our traditional ales will be stolen and replaced with undrinkable filth. Bicycles, trains, buses and walking shall be outlawed, purely for the benefit of the American automobile and oil industry. The Peak District will be quarried for America. The Lake District will be siphoned away. The New Forest will be chopped down and shipped westward. Our proud country will be used for training new anti-Islamic terrorists, so they can turn round ten years later and bite America on the arse. In short, life will be like being in hell, only worse.

    So, when America comes knocking, with a "51" badge in her hand, we must send her straight back across the "pond". Our greatest allies in the War Against Yanks will be our fellow members of the EU. They will want to keep Britain British just as much as they would value their own cultural heritage. You see, there are no Tories in Europe, except when Michael Portillo is visiting his parents. Our European neighbours have a far less bigoted and insular outlook on life. Yes, I realise that moving to a lower value currency will be hard. Moving to a representative democracy will be even harder. But we must bear these burdens, for the alternative is far worse.
    adequacy.org -- because it isn't

    sing it sister! (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 01:19:22 PM PST
    Canada and Mexico would also fare better from an EU trade association than they now do with NAFTA. Could you imagine the US harmonizing thier dollar with anyone else? The US wants the world to be their Puerto Rico.


     
    Hohoho (none / 0) (#30)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jan 11th, 2002 at 05:56:46 PM PST
    Whoever wrote this initial post cracks me up. Its clear they have no understanding of politics or economics. All that's being thrown out is a jumble of nationalism.

    Yes, the Euro isn't perfect, but its only major downfalls are cultural. If you're too up your own arse to realise that we now live in a multi-cultural world and us, those immigrants that you hate so much, will come here and they will enjoy the same life that we have, because its their right, then I suggest you keep reading the Sun (anyone notice that the links posted are from anti-Euro sites and SkyNews? (yes, that company owned by some screwed up power-hungry Australian who hates Europeans)).

    Who cares anyway, little do you realise that we're joining whether you like it or not. :)


     
    What are you talking about? (none / 0) (#31)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jan 11th, 2002 at 06:13:30 PM PST
    Where on earth are you getting these stats from? I'm heavily involved in this issue and I've never seen anything that you've posted in the real world:

    <i>Let's take Britain's international trade as a whole (visibles plus invisibles). Over 50% is with the rest of the world outside the EU, and it's profitable. Much of our trade with the EU is simply due to geographical closeness - in previous centuries over 70% was with our neighbours. Over 85% of our economy is trade within the UK or with non-EU countries.</i>

    Rubbish, utter rubbish. Most of trade is within the EU.

    <i>If we left the EU, we would be protected by World Trade Organisation (GATT) agreements, which have been bringing trade barriers down for forty years.</i>

    No, it brings barriers down for American companies. We're getting the rough end of the stick at the moment.

    <i>Switzerland has prospered without ever being in the EU. Like her, we could negotiate a free-trade agreement with the EU. The cash-strapped continental economies would not cut off one of their largest markets.</i>

    Switzerland doesn't have many of the commitments that we have (they also like selling weapons to Nazis and banking God knows how much corrupt money), such as migrants, which are not going away and need to be dealt with. Their economy doesn't need to stretch out as far as ours. Comparing them to us is like apples and oranges. Go and so some studying.

    <i>Here are some more facts about Britain and the Euro:
    Joining the euro would cost 36 billion pounds - money that would be better spent on schools and hospitals. </i>

    All these stats are made up, there is nothing in writing. Even so, do you really think that the government's going to spend it on hospitals? Seems to me they (and the previous party, don't forget they started it) prefer building large Domes and then letting them rot (either that or sticking it in the treasury, which is why our pound is so strong)).
    Let's not even begin on equality. Yes, we are infront of the US, but Europe makes us look like a steaming turd. We should be ashamed with the social system we have (its so easy manipulated at leaves out those who truly need it). Not to mention our shitty tubes.

    <i>The unemployment rate in Euroland is twice that in Britain. British unemployment is at its lowest for 20 years. </i>

    That's a huge generalisation. Yes, some areas have unemployment far greater than ours, some don't. But its not about unemployment, its about equality.

    <i>Euroland countries have not paid for their pensions. Britain has more money invested in pension schemes than the rest of Europe put together.</i>

    That's going down the toilet (seriously, do you actually pay attention to the news?).

    <i>Euroland taxes are a sixth higher than in Britain. </i>

    What exactly do you mean? Your comments are so bear. Many European countries have a higher tax bracket, yes, but that's because they really take it from the rich and upper-middle classes. I mean for Christs sake, why the hell is someone who earns a million per year in this country taxed the same as one who earns a 10th of that? Its obvious that Tony (and the conservatives) couldn't give a flying crap about the lower classes.

    <i>Britain is the fourth largest economy in the world.</i>

    Don't make me laugh. What exactly are you judging the size by?




     
    Is this one of these satirical web-sites? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jan 13th, 2002 at 09:06:14 AM PST
    It must be.
    If I'm wrong here, may god help you.
    I would rather read an article by some child about nuclear physics than this non-sense. What
    a waste of my time this was.

    Are all US-Americans (don't forget, there are Americans that live NOT in the US) this way?
    I've heard many stories about US-Americans being
    utter ignorant and thinking no end of themselves,
    like being the single most important country.
    I personally would love to visit the US and witness all this once for myself. Would be great fun.


    I think so (none / 0) (#39)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jan 13th, 2002 at 10:38:35 AM PST
    Is the writer of the original piece an American? That explains everything, phew.


    What do (none / 0) (#40)
    by hauntedattics on Sun Jan 13th, 2002 at 04:52:47 PM PST
    the U.S. and Americans have to do with this article? This article was about whether the U.K. should forsake the pound in favor of the euro. The fact that you two pansy-ass Anonymous Readers automatically assumed it was authored by some 'ignorant' American says more about your own ignorance and twisted prejudice than anything else. Especially since you've never actually even been to the U.S., for goodness sake.

    And if you think this site is nonsense and a waste of time, then why did you bother to post anything? Now who's ignorant?


    Jumping the gun a little (none / 0) (#41)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jan 13th, 2002 at 06:15:04 PM PST
    Ohh, you assume I've never been to the US, do you? I'll have you know I lived there for a couple of years, so take your stupid comments elsewhere, thank-you. On top of which, I know that it was written by an American. Its of great importance because 90% of Americans I've spoken to about Europe (assuming they can find it on the map), are against the EU and Euro (non of their business really). That's not to say all yanks are like that though.


    I'm sorry (none / 0) (#44)
    by nathan on Mon Jan 14th, 2002 at 07:19:24 AM PST
    Was there a point to your post? It's pretty ambiguous.

    Nathan
    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

    Read things through (none / 0) (#46)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jan 14th, 2002 at 05:47:09 PM PST
    Perhaps you should read the whole thread before throwing in pointless comments. Someone challenged me in a post and I replied.


    apparently... (none / 0) (#48)
    by nathan on Mon Jan 14th, 2002 at 06:14:34 PM PST
    American's don't have a lock on obnoxiousness. You replied to hauntedattic's post semi-coherently, aggressively, ambiguously, and, (I concluded,) pointlessly enough to fully warrant the raising of my elegantly-arched Spock-like left eyebrow, so to speak.

    It would appear on the evidence of this AR's manner that bloody-mindedness isn't dead in the sceptered isle. It's chilling to imagine that ones just like this may be a factor in Britain's decision on accepting the embrace of the slatternly, blood-soaked mother continent. Perhaps the Hanoverian house of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha isn't echt-enough Deutsch for you, and you tremble with desire for the po-faced, grey-suited hand-chopping Belgian Eurocrats and the fiendish, subhuman Hun. Imagining it chills me to the marrow.

    Not all Limeys are like that though.

    Nathan
    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

    Wow (none / 0) (#53)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 09:42:49 AM PST
    Wow, what a great response. Not a single criticism, just two paragraphs of complaining. Hauntedattic made a number of quick assumptions that were wrong, so I corrected him. I don't feel I was at all harsh on him (the author of the initial text, maybe). Its a good thing your opinion doesn't matter and the Euro is our future, whether you like it or not.


    No (none / 0) (#56)
    by hauntedattics on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 10:28:54 AM PST
    you weren't that harsh on me, except in calling me 'him'. Maybe I should change my login name to 'ms. hauntedattics' or some such.




    Pardon me (none / 0) (#57)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 11:59:56 AM PST
    Opps. I'm just so used to writers being male. I apologise.


     
    Clarification (none / 0) (#45)
    by hauntedattics on Mon Jan 14th, 2002 at 09:01:30 AM PST
    One of the AR's who posted some overgeneralized anti-Americanism explicitly said that he/she had never visited the U.S. If that wasn't you, sorry - sometimes it's hard to keep all the AR's straight.

    How do you know this article was written by an American? If it was really by an American, why is that a relief to you? Because it perpetuates your notions of Americans? Because no 'true Brit' or 'true European' could ever be against the euro?

    So the majority of Americans you've talked to are against the euro. Does this mean we all are? No. However, the euro will have an impact on the U.S. and Americans are thus entitled to have an opinion about it.

    And Americans don't have a lock on geographic ignorance. While living in Geneva, I met plenty of Europeans who had no clue as to the whereabouts of countries in the Western Hemisphere.



    Reply (none / 0) (#47)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jan 14th, 2002 at 05:48:30 PM PST
    If you read the last line of my post I note that not all Americans are like this

    I am aware that its an American who posted the initial comments because I checked up on his other posts on this website and discovered he was (I do my research, thank-you very much).

    The reason I find this as a relief is because it means I'm reading a post from someone who fortunately has no say in the matter of whether we join the Euro. I also find many yanks to be quite jealous of the EU (for good reason, it challenges US power), that's why I said it explains alot to me (especially the complete rubbish facts s/he claims).


     
    The Monkeys From Monkey Island (none / 0) (#42)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jan 13th, 2002 at 09:41:47 PM PST
    The Monkeys From Monkey Island that when came to mainland Europe just make problems where ever they go!

    U can call it football holligans, but its not true, even as humble turists, not all british but all English they just make troubles.
    They like to make the others sufer with theirs stupidity intellegence!

    They think they are the best! They speak loud, they throw way, pee on every corner, they love to figth (but only when they are in majority), and love to brake others stuff!

    Its case to say, dont came to here you monkeys rats. Stay on ur fucking island!! Far from the civilization!
    U rnt welcomed, we (i) dont care about u. And let me tell u something!

    U think u are on High Today But u ill not Rule (at least u think) forever!!!
    Your time ill hv an end. and that ill be sooner than u Think!!!

    IRISH, SCotish, Walish RULEZZ

    Northern Irish(protestants) and English U suck really bad!!




    U R A PRICK (none / 0) (#103)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 19th, 2002 at 04:49:55 AM PST
    Two words Spelling - Grammer!!

    Heres another - Wanker


    S.


     
    At least the authorknows the difference... (none / 0) (#43)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jan 14th, 2002 at 03:16:28 AM PST
    At least the author knows the difference between England and Britain...

    England isn't Britain.
    Britain isn't England.

    England is only a part of Britain.

    Britain, and the United Kingdom aren't the same thing, The British Isles and the UK aren't the same thing.

    Great Britain includes Scotland, England Ireland and Wales, as well as the Isle of Man. the Isle of man and Scotland have their own parliaments, the Ise of man has it's own government and tax laws.

    I realy wish people would make the effort to get their facts right before commenting on anything, no matter how whimsical the test, or their reply.


     
    Hahaha! (none / 0) (#50)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 03:02:07 AM PST
    dmg: now that was quite insightful! being a german i wonder if your articel reflects truly the british public opinion. Besides the "'one-size-fits-all' interest rates " argument (which isnt really an argument as a united economy is not all but really one), there was nothing but hot, nationalistic, militant air in your articel. I respect that britain might not want to join the eu, and me, I dont want britain joining either (mainly because your beef sucks, but also because large parts of your country are not so different from poland (except that they are coming up and not going down), just think of manchester or glasgow), but to implie that we are building an 'empire', a 'superstate' *against* you and the US (btw, since when has the uk been so tight with the US? how could you have possibly overcome the shame that they brought on to the greates-ever-empire), is just plain stupied! Tell me, who has the largest, best equiped, always-ready army?
    Who, in europe, last led an invasion against a souvereign nation (falklands, rings a bell?)?
    Britain, wasnt it? Keep your pound, keep your beef, and stay out! good luck fixing your transportation-, health- and education systems. Also, lets hope the racial-riots rioteers wont set your house on fire!


    as long as we're getting dirty (none / 0) (#51)
    by nathan on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 05:05:15 AM PST
    I might say that it's pretty obnoxious of you to insult a country by comparing it with Poland. I guess you must be right, though. Poland sucks. It would probably be even worse off if Germany hadn't conspired with the USSR to rape it and butcher it in WWII. You pathetic self-satisfied euro-weenie.

    Nathan
    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

    Jealous? (none / 0) (#52)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 09:40:05 AM PST
    Jealous are we? Have you ever been to Poland? They put Britain to shame along with almost every other country in the western world. Although the post may have been a tad (and I highlight the word "tad") its pretty damn accurate.


    reread and repost (none / 0) (#62)
    by nathan on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 04:08:55 PM PST
    Here's a question for you: am I for Poland or against it?

    [Hint: I like Poland.]

    Take your time.

    Nathan
    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

    Schizophrenic ? (none / 0) (#66)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 07:57:30 AM PST
    You are seriously talking out of your arse. What the hell is this comment:

    >>>I might say that it's pretty obnoxious of you to insult a country by comparing it with Poland. I guess you must be right, though. Poland sucks.<<<

    If that isn't insulting a country I don't know what is. Are you schizophrenic? The more I see your writings the more I'm convinced you're quite the moron.


    Alert! Alert! (none / 0) (#70)
    by hauntedattics on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 02:45:45 PM PST
    Apparently someone was born without the sarcasm and irony genes and must be tagged as such. Editors, please take note.




    lol (none / 0) (#75)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 04:11:17 AM PST
    lol. That's rich coming from an American. How you make me laugh.


    Laugh away, bucko (none / 0) (#80)
    by hauntedattics on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 07:17:58 AM PST
    What a sophisticated comeback, to make a nice stereotypical generalization about my nationality. Lots of sarcasm and irony inherent there. Maybe my next comment should be about your bad teeth.

    Nah.




    I am (none / 0) (#82)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 08:19:45 AM PST
    About as sophisticated as your comment on his remark. And I'm not English. As has been pointed out, you sure like to make assumptions.


    disgusting racism (none / 0) (#85)
    by nathan on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 08:33:45 AM PST
    She says bad teeth, and you immediately think "British?"

    Seek help immediately. Your streak of prejudice is a mile wide.

    Nathan
    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

    Please stop. (none / 0) (#94)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jan 18th, 2002 at 12:18:42 PM PST
    You're just antagonizing at this point. Hauntedattics comments about bad teeth was used to make an example of generalizations. To infer that a person is prejudiced because they understood the intention of the remark is not called for.


    nice try (none / 0) (#97)
    by nathan on Sat Jan 19th, 2002 at 01:32:55 AM PST
    To infer that a person is prejudiced because they understood the intention of the remark is not called for.

    Yeah, right. Don't try to sneak away. You essentially said that "all Englishmen - Britons even - have nasty teeth. All of them! They're not too poor for cosmetic dentistry, they're merely disgusting and filthy."

    Go away before I lose my temper. Your Naziism antagonises me beyond belief.

    Nathan
    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

     
    hey, shut up (none / 0) (#73)
    by nathan on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 06:33:34 PM PST
    I'm convinced you're quite the moron...

    If this is the best you can do, I have nothing to worry about. As for "my writings," I suppose they might seem stupid to someone who can't parse a joke right when it's staring him right in his big fat face.

    Nathan
    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

    Typical (none / 0) (#74)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 04:09:57 AM PST
    "It was a joke" is a typical response from someone trying to cover their tracks.


     
    Joke (none / 0) (#84)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 08:33:28 AM PST
    Nathan, man, you are a complete joke. At least you are providing me with a laugh. Thanks for that.


    you suck (nt) (none / 0) (#86)
    by nathan on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 09:02:32 AM PST

    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

    Why are you trying to help these troglodytes? (none / 0) (#88)
    by T Reginald Gibbons on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 11:25:22 AM PST
    Their world view doesn't permit self-criticism. You could have written "joke" in bold at the start and end of the post, and they'd still be berating you for being prejudiced against Poland. They aren't worth your time.


    never give up (none / 0) (#89)
    by nathan on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 12:39:31 PM PST
    I thought that I might be able to lead a few pathetic, lost souls to God. One must never give it up. Just think, like Alec Stoke-d'Urberville, any one of these might be brought to spiritual reawakening through gentle, firm, forthright, forbearing correction.

    Yours,
    Nathan
    --
    Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

    Yes. (none / 0) (#92)
    by hauntedattics on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 07:34:02 PM PST
    You are truly my hero, dear. Don't stop believin'.
    By the way, I think Poland is pretty cool myself.



     
    Britain has no constitution! (none / 0) (#54)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jan 15th, 2002 at 10:03:44 AM PST
    Please get your facts straight.

    Britain does not have and never has had a constitution. The country runs on the basis of a series of adhoc agreements that have evolved over time, hence the House of Lords appeared to challenge the Monarchy when the landowners gained power, and the House of Commons was created to challenge the House of Lords after the Industrial Revolution.

    - A European Londoner.


     
    Not even British... (none / 0) (#65)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jan 16th, 2002 at 02:57:06 AM PST
    "Of course, if such a superstate emerges, an independent Britain would be useful from an American perspective, since historically we have always been able to rely on her to act as an airstrip whenever it has been necessary. Unlike the lukewarm support we get from other NATO countries. But then again, I find myself wondering, do we as Americans really care about what goes on in Europe any more ? Should we allow Great Britain entry to NAFTA ?"

    The author is American - most young Brits are pro-European. I just thought I'd post this after reading that some people thought it was a Brit posting. These are in no-way typical views among the young over here.


     
    You should open a book about history and geography (none / 0) (#79)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jan 17th, 2002 at 06:37:40 AM PST
    First : Great Britain is in Europe.
    No different geographic region.
    France is 100km (75 miles) away from UK.

    Second : You should stop rewrite history.
    Human rights were invented in France, when UK was still a monarchy. You should remind that as an american who was just 2 hundred years ago under their domination.

    Second : nazisme was invented in germany (Europe). OK.
    But now, i think one of the country with the strongest nazis faction is US.

    Third : socialism was invented in germany too, but don't mess it with comunism, it has good ideas, and i don't think liberalism at all cost is always a good thing.


     
    Red Necks (none / 0) (#102)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 19th, 2002 at 04:41:52 AM PST
    What is it with you Yanks? Look I'll spell this out for you, I'm from the UK I'm not particularly happy about the fact that we are going to loose the but.....it makes sense!! The only thing I think you guys are afraid of apart from everyone outside of America being Nazis and communists (You really are dull if you actually believe that!) Is that eventually Europe will be in the situation where it is on a par with America...Just because of the shear diversity of the system..China would rather associate themselves with Europe as would Russia...It may not be for decades to come but when it does, your basically scared of losing your big old superiority complex.

    Lighten up guys! The world doesn't stay still for too long. You've got about 200 years of history, that's a short piss in the lake of time. things are gonna change and it looks like they're gonna be on the other foot.

    Just sit back & pay a bit more attention before spouting about things you've got no idea about.

    Really!? All Nazis and communists!! you guys make me laugh!


    StalkS




     

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