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Main reason adults are better than teenagers...
We have the vote. 2%
We have all the money. 1%
We have all the other power too, in addition to money and votes. 25%
We know how to get properly laid, without getting pregnant unless we want to. 20%
We know how to use, not abuse, alcohol. 10%
We practice basic personal hygiene. 5%
We look better, and dress a hell of a lot better. 9%
We know what real music is. 26%

Votes: 96

 Teenage problems, teenage solutions.

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
May 06, 2002
To anyone who follows current events today, it is no news that teenagers and the havoc they wreak upon a frightened nation are in the headlines daily. If it is not a story about some teen psychopaths arming themselves with an astonishing array of deadly military hardware and sadistic improvised explosives and laying waste to innocents by the bushel-full, it is the tale of yet another teen hacker unleashing such chaos on business and industry in the form of an email virus that thousands are thrown out of work and onto the welfare rolls, and millions see their employers fall on hard times, canceling raises and Christmas bonuses in the face of hacker-related costs.

[Update 05/08/2002 by elenchos] Today UN Secretary General Kofi Annan responded to my ideas with a ringing endorsement (more or less). In particular, the Secretary General does not support the "right" to work at a McJob just to get money to run around town in a car, buy drugs and get knocked up. Thank you, Secretary General Kofi Annan!


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As Adequacy's resident liberal leftist, I would be the first to come to the defense of the much maligned teenager. After all, isn't it true that these rare and isolated acts are excessively spotlighted by the media, and isn't it a fact that the ordinary teen is an unsung upright citizen, who works hard in school and through quiet diligence is a credit to the nation, if not flashy enough to make the front page? Sadly, however, the "ordinary" teen fails to live up to this hoped-for ideal. The horrorific body count of those murdered on the highways of the nation by teen drunk drivers is enough to explode that illusion of the adequate "average" teen. Combine that with the leading role played by teens in making the Drug War a failure, and the contribution average teens make to the rolls of new cigarette addicts, or the average teen's shameful record of music piracy and software theft, and a sad, sorry portrait emerges. Teenagers are, in the most kind and sympathetic view, disgraceful, dangerous, and incorrigible.

Given that, the question follows: what is to be done?

The "teenager" is an invention of 20th century America. Prior to then, there was no special, awkward stage of life at the end of childhood and before adulthood began. In what we today would call the mid- to late-teens, childhood ended abruptly and adulthood began, marked by marriage, a job, or military service. But after a century of otherwise positive social liberalization, the teenage years have taken what was an infinitely short dividing line between child and adult and stretched the two phases apart, but with nothing to fill the gap, it has become a vacuum.

This vacuum, this waste land, has gone from idleness to mischief to wanton criminality and destruction. So, since it is not realistic to turn back the clock to a time of marriage at age 14, or enlistment in the Army at 15, we must instead fill this waste land with constructive activity, and expunge the garbage pile of filth and decadence that has been sucked into this open sore of a breach between the ages of 12 and 20.

What sort of filth? Drugs and computer crime are the most obvious items on the menu of this foul feast, along with murder and illicit sex, leading to pregnancy, and infanticide. But there are more basic causes behind these results of the depraved teenage life. So rather than debate the nebulous question of whether marijuana causes hacking or hacking leads to marijuana use, it is more pertinent to ask what are teenagers doing using computers at all? And what are they doing running around town unsupervised and free to "score" drugs?

Where do they get the money for drugs anyway? Steal it of course, or sometimes earn it at their job at the fast food restaurant. But why do they even have a job? It serves no educational purpose, and so besides buying drugs, what do teens need money for anyway? What?

To buy cars? Ah, now we are making progress. What social or educational good is served by putting a teenager of all people, behind the wheel of an automobile? So they can drive to the marijuana dealer? So they can engage in unsafe sex and become pregnant? Oh, I know! So they can drive to their job!!! Now the circle closes, and we see that driving is a self-justifying "need" with nothing but ill consequences.

Teenagers need to be learning how to diagram sentences, memorize important dates in history and math formulae, and drill in military skills for their mandatory Armed Forces enlistment, and where do they therefore have time to be driving around, or slouching through a shift at KFC, or surfing the web? Where is there time to allow teens to search the net for tips on computer hacking, or for contraband MP3 files?

Look at the typical teen you know, perhaps that surly boy across the street, and ask yourself: Does that kid deserve to be listening to pop music at all? Obviously, he deserves no free pop music, and with no job, he cannot buy compact discs, nor a hi-fi set to play them on. Think about what happens when these minors, who can be as strong and fast as adults, listen to rock music. Their blood boils and they enter into a kind of frenzy. Violent dance such as at a "rave" or "mosh" is usually the best you can hope for when a group of these animals gets the heat of their music into their veins. They begin to claw at their own eyes, and tear the clothes off those around them, and proceed with the infamous teenage sexual orgies that has made the United States the world's #1 abortion nation, and unwed teen mom nation. It doesn't stop there, of course. Often random attacks on the innocent, as in one of our many school massacres or terrorist attacks is the grisly end of a session of teen music listening.

Some have argued that teens should be allowed to hear certain kinds of music, like classical and opera. I agree, to a point, because I think allowing individuals a maximum amount of freedom (where practical) is good both for society and for the future non-terrorist teen. Obviously, no jazz. But can kids safely hear instrumental, non-sexual music? I say yes provided it is not performed by the subversives that teens crave to worship in their baccanal rock and pop shows, nor played from a pre-recorded medium. Let them play their own music on a recorder or cello (NO drums, no guitars!), under supervision, and perhaps their savage nature will be tamed.

It goes without saying that we must have uniforms. Any questions? I didn't think so.


The more i read the more i wonder.. (none / 0) (#9)
by DG on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 02:37:58 PM PST
If you know anything outside your own personal bubble of insulation. You first start out by saying how you are going to be the defender of the much malign teenager like you are some hero of the underdog, Then you make a complete about-face on how teenagers don't deserve anything we have now.. are you bitter elenchos? Are you angry becuse young people have a better life growing up? This must be a joke becuse, you seem to go out of your way to make yourself sound like a paranoid rightist conservative from the bible belt.
© 2002, DG. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

elenchos (none / 0) (#13)
by tkatchev on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 03:26:51 PM PST
Is very much into heavy mind-altering drugs, so you don't really need to take anything of his seriously.

Most likely, it's the demon-powder (literally) speaking, rather than the real elenchos.

Peace and much love...

What can we conclude from this personal attack? (none / 0) (#14)
by elenchos on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 03:34:02 PM PST
Could it be that you can't think of a reasoned reply to my ideas, so instead you try to smear me personally? This is an example of exactly why youths should not be allowed to use computers.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Oh come on. (none / 0) (#15)
by tkatchev on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 04:01:03 PM PST
Are you trying to tell me that you are not into mind-altering controlled substances?

I don't belive that for a moment. That goes against your whole online personality and "lifestyle"; in that case, I would have to conclude that you are nothing but a massive troll.

Peace and much love...

What about TEEN RIGHTS??? (2.00 / 1) (#16)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 04:18:01 PM PST
I don't care if this moron is on crack or not. My parents BELIEVE THIS STUFF! Our school principle believes it too. WTF? They treat us like shit. How come nobody cares? All you talk about is this elenchos guy. FOAD.

Well, yes. (5.00 / 1) (#18)
by tkatchev on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 04:49:55 PM PST
Probably because you're not important. Really, who cares? Nobody here, certainly.

Peace and much love...

Try a bit less compassion next time, ok? (none / 0) (#20)
by because it isnt on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 05:03:48 PM PST
You don't really want the guilt of another teen suicide on your conscience, do you? Right now, that lad's off down to the river with a rope tied to a big boulder, sobbing "nobody really cares about me, not even on the internet" to himself quietly, choking back the tears. -- because it isn't

So what! (5.00 / 2) (#31)
by walwyn on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 04:48:32 AM PST
Why should we wait until they reach their mid 20's to early 30's to grow out of their drug crazed, rock induced, criminal behavour. Supply them with all the pills, razor blades, and rope they need, to end their worthless lives with the least inconvenience to the rest of us.

Ha. You agreed with me from the beginning. (none / 0) (#26)
by elenchos on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 07:35:33 PM PST
You couldn't criticise my argument because you like my argument. You just don't like who it is coming from. Pretend it was written by Rasputin or Ivan the Terrible if that's easier for you to swallow.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

well well (none / 0) (#46)
by nathan on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 12:03:44 PM PST
They treat us like shit.

They must be 'flushed with victory.'

Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Troll. (none / 0) (#51)
by nx01 on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 01:13:01 PM PST
Teenagers, being underaged, do not have rights as such. They have privlidges, which can be revoked. Just because you believe you should have a right to do something does not mean that it is such.

For instance, Osama bin Laden held a belief that he had a right to attack America, a soverign state. Terroristic thoughts like this get you nowhere, though, as our military has shown.

Only a troll would make the implication that teenagers -- which are under the legal protection of their parents (or guardians) -- have "rights".

I call you out, and I will ignore you from now on, Mr. Anonymous Reader. Granted, you have been quite prolific, and sometimes you have some good points, but your constant trolling and arguing with yourself and the respected members of this commuity has got to stop.

"Every time I look at the X window system, it's so fucking stupid; and part of me feels responsible for the worst parts of it."
-- James Gosling

Have you ever heard of someone.... (none / 0) (#196)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 24th, 2002 at 03:31:39 PM PST
...called Samuel Adams? Or how about Thomas Jefferson? Benjamin Franklin? They were all colonists in the American Colony of Great Britain, they didn't have the right to taxation with representation. Just because people don't have the right to or for something today doesn't make it right, or good. The idea of accepting rules and society the way it is just because that is the way it has been is one of utter nonsense. What if our forefathers practiced this theory? We would still be merely a part of England, and not the great nation that we are now.

Adams, Jefferson, and Franklin (none / 0) (#199)
by walwyn on Fri May 24th, 2002 at 06:31:36 PM PST
also believed in responsibility. When you start to pay tax you may gain some rights.

In the meanwhile I can assure you that feral vermin have no rights at all.

Unfortunately (none / 0) (#19)
by budlite on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 05:02:32 PM PST
age isn't a good absolute indicator of maturity. Oh sure, there's a loose correlation, but banning someone from using a collection of pieces of metal, plastic and semiconductors because they've not been alive for a certain amount of time is just silly.

I am an Elenchocentrist (none / 0) (#21)
by First Incision on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 05:05:39 PM PST
I agree. Tkatchev, while no one can wield an ad hominem quite like you, we all know you are capable of a well-reasoned refution of elenchos's logic. Please come back when you have more to say.
Do you suffer from late-night hacking? Ask your doctor about Protonix.

Heh heh you said 'wield'. (none / 0) (#27)
by because it isnt on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 07:41:38 PM PST
you are capable of a well-reasoned refution of elenchos's logic

Don't you mean a well-reasoned elenchos of refutation's logic? -- because it isn't

Pfft.. (none / 0) (#197)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 24th, 2002 at 03:37:41 PM PST
"This is an example of exactly why youths should not be allowed to use computers."

Pffft! Ignorance at its worst. I'm sorry, I think that anyone with an IQ under 140 shouldn't be allowed to use a computer - that would make all but a few who visit this site, banned from computers. That sounds just as fair as not allowing minors to use computers.

Hrm (none / 0) (#10)
by budlite on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 02:45:09 PM PST
I'm kind of inclined to agree (though as teenager I did kind of stray from the picture you paint - I didn't beat people up/kill people/engage in sexual activities (reckless or otherwise)), guitars? No drums? Damn, without those there would be no Sigur Rós, purveyors of some of the most calming and calm itself, beautiful music I've heard in my life to this point.

Your Article sickens me (1.00 / 2) (#22)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 05:47:01 PM PST
You obviously have no children( but of course, I expect you don't have a wife or GF). Im a 16 year old, Ive had a heart Transplant not because of drugs but because I got an infection. Teenage years are confusing times, if some do drugs so what!? It does not bother me! Taking away our freedom is not a good idea, thats like throwing a lit match into oil. We have enough preesure against us, WE don't need dumbasses like you to add more to our lives!

please do us a favor and don't write articles on things you have no experience

Indy ^_^

If... (5.00 / 3) (#33)
by hauntedattics on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 05:46:27 AM PST
elenchos is an adult, then by definition he was a teenager at some point. Thus he has all the experience he needs to write an article about what's wrong with teenagers.

And please save your teenage dramatics for an audience who cares. "The pressure...oh, the pressure of being a poor, misunderstood teenager!" Please. If you're a middle-class teenager in the U.S., Canada or Europe, you've never had it so good. So stop whining and get on with your life already.

Yo Hauntedattics (1.00 / 2) (#35)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 09:23:17 AM PST
"So stop whining and get on with your life already."

I was not talking to you so do me a favor and shove your head up your ass! Your making fun on how we complain about pressures? You know what type of garbage we have to go through day in and day out? School, family, relationships, and thats just a tip of the ice berg. I don't care if this guy has a teen, if he's just typing this us cause his kid's a wack-job, then his kid did something stupid. Me, Im getting on my life as it is, can't wait till summer

Indy ^_^

Still whining, huh? (5.00 / 1) (#36)
by hauntedattics on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 09:52:18 AM PST
School, family and relationships...what terrible things! Oh, the horror! If the rest of the iceberg doesn't include poverty, hunger, regular beatings by official entities or getting maimed by landmines, then you've still got it pretty good.

There. Done with my sermon for the day.

So because... (none / 0) (#37)
by The Mad Scientist on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 10:49:06 AM PST
...somewhere it gets even worse he should put up and shut up?

Well, there are landmines somewhere else. Is it a reason that he should accept ie. a curfew without complaining?

Well... yes. (none / 0) (#39)
by Illiterate Bum on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 11:05:23 AM PST
Nothing is as sobering when you realize that somewhere in Cambodia a boy/girl your age is limping on crutches because a limb was blown off by a landmine. It suddenly makes such concerns as curfew and allowance a bit petty, don't you think?

I was a teenager once, too. However, my parents taught me to be thankful for the advantages that I have. Living in Hong Kong also helped to further hammer out the differences between the haves and have-nots, and to appreciate and savor the freedoms that I am allowed to enjoy.

Teenagers from affluent areas are generally an ungrateful bunch, and do not realize how well-off that they have it. They do not realize that there is an entire world, one that does not enjoy the same benefits that they do, outside of their cozy little suburbs- oftentimes right around the corner (like in their local inner city). I personally think that the AR should shut up and grow up. Don't you?

"...normal, balanced people do not waste time posting to weblogs." --tkatchev

The teenager is an invention of affluence. (4.66 / 3) (#43)
by elenchos on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 11:54:49 AM PST
It is precisely because Western kids have it so good that they turn rotten. This is why kids in rich suburbs are so much worse than in poorer areas. They are decadent and bored, and their lives are devoid of meaning. All they have is expensive toys: game consoles, computers, skate boards, cars, and drugs.

Being sold into sex slavery in Thailand would be cruel. But sending a kid to military school is not cruel; it is in fact the very thing Western teenagers need to carry them successfully into adulthood.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

military school (none / 0) (#79)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 05:22:07 AM PST
So you are saying that the parent is not responsible for the raising of their children, that it should instead be passed off to some military school to be done for them.

The parents brought the child into the world, it is their responsibility to raise that child and carry it into adulthood. If the parents set the example of not being responsible for their actions, what will the child learn from that?

If Dad is a drill instructor, no problem. (none / 0) (#96)
by elenchos on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 03:41:52 PM PST
But otherwise, most parents need to sub-contract the "tough love" their kids need. Ask any child of the military prep-school system, and he will tell you he thanks his parents a thousand times a day for loving him enough to send him.

Perhaps you don't know any products of military prep school because you don't generally mix with CEOs, astronauts, statesmen and Pulitzer Prize-winning authors? We do (and are), however, and we know of what we speak.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

CEOs (none / 0) (#99)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 04:15:09 PM PST
actually, CEO's are some of my biggest customers. some have military/prep school background, but most of them that ive met just had strong family upbringing. Mom and Dad taught them right from wrong and prepared them to go out in the world, which is mom and dads job. If the parents arent up to the job of raising the child, they should not have a child. Its a simple decision, am i adult enough to take responsibility for my actions, if the answer is no, the choice is celibacy since there are no 100%guaranteed means of birth control.

Excuse me..... (none / 0) (#192)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 21st, 2002 at 09:20:26 PM PST
...but who the fuck are you to tell me what my kids need? Answer me that? There are two people on this planet that can say what they need. My self, and my wife. You people post baseless bullshit that you can't even back up. Why don't you stop wasting oxygen that could actually go to a useful cause, seeing as that you aren't using it for anything important.

You know what I think (1.00 / 1) (#38)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 10:59:55 AM PST
"There. Done with my sermon for the day"

I think you should get your Preacher's licence revoked cause thats the most worst sermon I ever heard....And I don't go to church. Maybe I didn't break it down enough for you

School-Bullies, Peer Preasure, drugs, sex,Homosexuality

Family-Privacy, Parents, Divorce, sex, homosexuality, drugs

Relationships-Homosexuality(which you guys find satanistic, I just think your just homophobics), Sex, Peer Preasure, drugs, break ups

You went through this back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth unless your mom sealed you in a bubble from the outside world which makes me believe you people have sociophobia


READ- NEWS FOR GROWN-UPS. (5.00 / 1) (#40)
by Illiterate Bum on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 11:30:51 AM PST
Your childish insult aside, do you realize that none of the things that you mentioned hold any water when compared to the life-threatening issues that hauntedattics brought up? These are real kids that are denied the same opportunities that you so blithely ignore. Do you not realize that it is a privelege to worry about such things as sex, peer-pressure, and "break-ups?" I hate to break this to you, junior, but the majority of the teens in the world are more concerned over where their next meal will come from then homosexual overtones in their relationships. Some of them even pick up guns and fight for what they believe in, whether it's misguided or not. I understand that these are your concerns- fine. Lacking anything else to worry about, you worry about the petty things. But do not be so presumptuous as to think that your concerns are even close to being as crucial and important as those that trouble the less fortunate.

Also, your constant reference to homosexuality leads me to believe that you are homophobic yourself. Most others tend not to worry about it unless it is a valid concern (which it only is if you are homosexual or homophobic, which can be argued is oftentimes one and the same). The majority of Adequacy readers are not homophobic, even if some of them do believe it's a sin. There is a difference there, junior- are you smart enough to figure it out?

Go back to slashdot, child, where your inane juvenile tripe is appreciated; you'll find that the majority of the readers here are not appreciative of your moronic antics. Adult trolls we'll entertain; juvenile ones we will not tolerate.

"...normal, balanced people do not waste time posting to weblogs." --tkatchev

thanks for the speeche (none / 0) (#41)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 11:44:53 AM PST
Ok Greg, I won the bet! I told you these guys get quick to anger and tightassed

*Recieves $5 from friend*

Thanks :p


Talking to your imaginary friend (none / 0) (#44)
by walwyn on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 11:57:39 AM PST
cuts no ice here.

that's enough out of you (none / 0) (#45)
by nathan on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 12:01:49 PM PST
Keep your teen buttsex adventures to yourself, fag.

Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

$5. (5.00 / 1) (#48)
by tkatchev on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 12:18:04 PM PST
Is that enough for a quick hit on the crackpipe wherever you live?

Peace and much love...

Dunno (none / 0) (#49)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 12:24:50 PM PST
But for a ticket to see MIB2, 5 bucks is all I need


don't try it here, Captain Bumass (4.00 / 1) (#55)
by nathan on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 05:47:15 PM PST
Your depraved fag codes are not welcome here, you choadsmoking vandal.

Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

MIB2 (none / 0) (#76)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 04:59:31 AM PST
MIB2 isnt a code, its an acronym. If you had paid attention during english in highschool you would know that.

MIB2 = Men In Black 2

Eh! (none / 0) (#80)
by walwyn on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 05:47:35 AM PST
An acronym for some code just makes it worse. What the hell is "Men In Black 2" supposed to mean?

It sound rather anti-government (none / 0) (#82)
by nx01 on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 07:30:46 AM PST
As in "We want to kill the CIA members who want to help us!"

This person seems to be dangerous, possibly another anarchist fascist pipe bomber. Perhaps we should report him|her to the authorities?

"Every time I look at the X window system, it's so fucking stupid; and part of me feels responsible for the worst parts of it."
-- James Gosling

Report him to the authorities? (5.00 / 1) (#90)
by tkatchev on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 11:20:48 AM PST
What for? So they put him in the zoo?

Unfortunately, it's not an endangered species, so your plan will fail. :(

Well, maybe a cute little petting zoo...

Peace and much love...

According to my research... (none / 0) (#83)
by dmg on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 08:42:35 AM PST
found on various criminal hacker websites, MIB2 is part of an enhanced SNMP protocol. The MIB is an ASN.1 database containing information about manufacturers hardware, and how it may be managed by an SNMP capable piece of hacking software such as Sun Microsystem's "Sun Net Manager" or Hewlett-Compackard's "Open View".

ASN.1 is the Abstract Syntax Notation
SNMP is the Simple Network Management Protocol

Thank you.

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

Wah? (none / 0) (#84)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 09:15:03 AM PST
You thought the MIB2 I mention was about Hacking? Its the new Will Smith Movie thats coming out July 3 2002, watch it at your local theatres

I should get checks from Sony for this advertisment


Why? None of us will see it. (none / 0) (#94)
by elenchos on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 03:09:56 PM PST

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Its sad God made people as stupid as you fools... (none / 0) (#190)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 21st, 2002 at 09:04:31 PM PST
...and I'm talking about you guys who support this bullshit that is often written about in this cesspool you call a "Grown-Up Site". SNMP, correct, it stands for Simple Network Management Protocol. It is a Layer 3 (in the OSI model) protocol used for network troubleshooting and administration. It has absolutely <b>no</b> links to hacking or any form of hacking.

You want to know something? There's no such thing as a "criminal hacker" website. Its perfectly legal to created a website about hacking. There's something here in the US that we like to call the <b>First Ammendment to the Constitution</b>.

Its this little thing that says that the people of the United States of America can say what ever the fuck they want and you can't do a damn thing about it. =)

First ammendment (5.00 / 1) (#193)
by walwyn on Wed May 22nd, 2002 at 01:30:08 AM PST
also protects dmg's right to call a spade a spade. He correctly describe these as "criminal hacker" websites, as they are mostly fequented by hackers.

Hackers are NOT criminals... (none / 0) (#195)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 24th, 2002 at 03:23:11 PM PST
Hackers are merely people who understand a peice of software in and out. That does not make them a criminal. If they use their knowledge to do damage of any sort then they are criminals, but most merely high themselves out to large coorporations that pay them to find security holes in their networks.

As you don't seem to know... (none / 0) (#198)
by walwyn on Fri May 24th, 2002 at 06:27:00 PM PST
that 'high' does not mean 'hire', nor that 'peice' and 'coorporations' are not real word, it is unremarkable that you don't also know that 'hacker' means 'one who commits computer crime'.

If... (none / 0) (#87)
by hauntedattics on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 10:30:38 AM PST
by "tightassed" you mean "willing to call you on your bullshit" then yes, we are. As for getting angry, there's only one person on this thread letting his emotions do the talking, and that person would be you. Cheers.

I think this article is hillarious (none / 0) (#188)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon May 20th, 2002 at 02:12:12 AM PST
I skimmed through this article and laughed all the way through. You honestly think that holding back kids will help them grow?? DUMB FUCKS you be. Listen: Don't you think that once they get their heads out from your tight, constricting ass cheeks and start to hear kids talking about that "oh-so-sinful" book, Harry Potter, they will listen to it and find out, holy shit, it's NOT THAT BAD and read all they can about it, then just getting more mad at your parenting for holding them from everything? It's so stupid of you guys to think that your ideas are okay.

I mean, SEXY CLASSICAL MUSIC?! Yeah, watch out, here I go getting a boner to Fur Elise, or even worse, Moonlight Sonata, oooh, gets my juices flowin'. Makes me wanna smash my head on some bricks, or make you guys do the same, it's only fair. Kids will be kids. However, I'm sure all of you "grown-ups", as the title so proclaims the news here for you all, didn't get hair anywhere on your body, sans your head, til you turned 21, didn't get an erection til you were 25, and didn't lose your virginity til... Well, we'll see, wont we? And I'm sure all of you listened to classical music, just like Bach etcetera, etcetera, and didn't DARE touch stuff like swing dancing or The Beatles. They be bad influences. -=sniffles=-

Listen to yourself, or read what you're typing for once. Watch where your fingers hit the keys on the board. IT WILL MAKE YOU STOP!! I will admit that teenagers are unruly, but look at EVERY generation. All of them have bad seeds within them. Let them have their bad seeds, let those with morals not strive to be them.

And no worries for kids?? Jeeeeezus CHRIST, mother fuckers!!!! This is the time in our lives where we try to MAKE SOMETHING OF OURSELVES, you guys at least have something in mind, and have taken it, your worries are over until you get fired. We have to go, REGARDLESS IF WE WANT TO, and can't stop until school is out. If we get expelled, we're FUCKED. And trust me, I know. I have a job. It's shitty, but a job. We have to worry about school, drugs, parents, relationships, and yes, homosexuallity is a problem. It's hard to come to realization of it, it's NOT EASY. I am proudly bi, and it took me 2 years to realize it. You fucks don't make it any easier. Friends, moving(parents move on a whim a LOT), emotions, blahdeeblah, stereotypical teenager shit. Don't you DARE mock our living style, for it seems to be more open minded then your cookie-cutter home, "I think I'll beat my kids straight for listening to Eurythmics" asses.

Now with that out, for those of you who read this far, gooooood for you. ^_^ Anyway. Hope some of you learned from this, and those who didn't... Can get a boner from Mozart.

Oh dear. (none / 0) (#189)
by hauntedattics on Tue May 21st, 2002 at 01:57:04 PM PST
Is your blood pressure at record levels yet? I'm sure there are some good anger management classes in your area. Please sign up right away, to protect your health.

And while you're at it, learn how to communicate more effectively by (a) whining less and (b) taking everything a bit less personally. Trust me, it helps when you reach that "worry-free" time known as adulthood.

Why don't you actually try to address his points? (none / 0) (#191)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 21st, 2002 at 09:12:53 PM PST
Oh wait, thats can't. For some reason you seem to have the idea in your thick skulls that if you say someone is whining it negates their arguement. Last I checked, it didn't. All of you so called "Grown Ups" can't argue worth shit. Put together none of can hold as much water as I can with one hand, figuratively speaking, of course. So why don't you actually address the points that he said and at least try to pull yourself out of the hole you keep digging but refuse to acknowledge is there?

Uh-huh. (5.00 / 1) (#194)
by hauntedattics on Wed May 22nd, 2002 at 05:59:33 AM PST
Cutting through all the whining and bullshit of the AR's previous post (and it took some doing, let me tell you), I distilled out the following points:

1. Harry Potter is not that bad.
2. Classical music doesn't make people want to have sex.
3. The adults on Adequacy went through puberty late, if at all, and have yet to have sex.
4. Kids have a staggerly high number of worries, while adults' only "worry" (and it's a lame one), is getting fired.
5. Being openminded is the only virtue.

Now, #1 is inane, #2 has been addressed elsewhere in the discussion of this article, #3 is pure libel, #4 is merely laughable and #5 is addressed all over this site all the time. Tell me again why we should take the previous post seriously and address the "arguments" therein?

When you teenagers set yourselves up as some sort of noble martyrs, whose lives and lifestyles are being threatened or curtailed by those terrible grown-ups out there, you do not endear yourselves to adults. Adults have been teenagers and many of them have survived that condition, grown up and learned to laugh at themselves, and now lead happy, successful lives. I suggest you look to them for guidance. There are plenty of good models out there.

hey! hands off hauntedattics! (5.00 / 1) (#42)
by nathan on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 11:51:11 AM PST
You lost many points with me with the 'shove up ass' comments. Civilised people don't think that sort of filth, much less write in to well-respected members of public forums. You butthole.

While I can tell that you are very passionate about the subject of teenager 'rights,' you should remember that passionate opinions can still be wrong. Teens today have many problems, because the human condition is a sorrowful one; but that is hardly an argument for retaining an outmoded idea (that of 'the teenager' as a developmental category) that has outlived its usefulness. elenchos's article, whatever its conclusions, must be argued against in its own terms, or else you must provide a convincing argument about the weakness of those terms. You have done neither.

The idea that people aged 13-19 risk drugs, homosexuality, and illegitimate sexual behaviour is precisely why elenchos has argued that the idea of 'the teenager' has become outmoded and dangerous.

Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Teenager (none / 0) (#78)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 05:17:24 AM PST
Actually the idea of he teenager is a sound one.

It used to be that you were a child, playing in the yard, running thru the streets playing tag with your friends one day, and then u were an adult with responsibilities the next.

Now, u are a child, playing with your friends, then a teenager, learning what it takes to be an adult, then and adult, using what your parents taught u about responsibility.

Adults must work to pay the bills, so teenagers should be made to get jobs to buy the things they want, no more mommy and daddy buying it for them. They learn that in life if one wants something, they must work for it rather than have it handed to them.

Adults must drive to work, the store, the doctor, etc, so the teenager should drive him/herself to work and pay for the car and its maintenance/gas themself. they will learn that everything in life comes with a price, even the freedom a car gives.

Adults have mortgages, car payments, insurance payments. So mom and dad buy a cheap used car and make the teenager pay them each week out of the money he/she gets at their part time job. Once again, everything has a price, and they will also learn to budget their money to make sure they can pay for everything that needs to be paid.

Between school during the day, working part time at night, their chores at home, and studying they will have to learn to budget their time.

Between going to school from 7-3, studying/doing chores from when they get home till 4:30, working from 5-9, eating when they get home, and maybe watching some TV if they got their homework done before work they wont have time to get into any trouble during the weeks. on the weekends they have their homework as well, studying, chores, and errands for the family (since they have a car they can run to the grocery store to get the couple items that were forgotten, take their little brother sister to junior league sports/dance class/musci lessons etc) they will have a full schedule. If they managed to budget their time properly and found a way to sqeeze in some free time, then as a reward for the responsibility theyve shown they can go see the new movie thats out or go get themself a new CD.

Teenagers are no longer children, but they are not yet adults. They are learning to be adults, and it is their parents responsibility to teach them what that is. Being an adult is a 24 hour a day job, learning to be one should be as well.

nuts to you (none / 0) (#97)
by nathan on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 03:58:56 PM PST
I'm 23 and I work 14-18 hours a day, depending. It would be much easier to be dozing in some dumbass highschool class.

Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Dozing (none / 0) (#100)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 04:33:01 PM PST
sometimes id love to go back to highschool, tho my life wasnt exactly easy then.
i didnt have time for relationships and such so you wont be hearing one of those 'relationships, peer pressure, etc etc blah blah' speeches from me. I got up in the morning, had breakfast, went to school, came home and had my homework to do, then my chores or work, after work it was home to eat some dinner, do any homework i hadnt done...... Can you see where this is going?

Gramma and Grandpa made sure I didnt have time to get into trouble since mom was too busy out getting herself in trouble and dad was remaried and living out of state. If I wanted something, I had to earn the money and buy it for myself. When i wanted a car, Gramma and Grandpa bought me one for $600.00 and made me pay them back $75.00 a week. Had to pay my own insurance, gas, maintenance, etc. Even as a child, if i wanted something, more often than not I had to earn it. I want a video game system, 6 months of extra chores and I got it. A new game for my video game system, a month of extra chores. They made sure I knew the value of hard work and responsibility. When i decided to go to technical school after I graduated I had a small amount of money saved up (after all I didn't have time to be out running around spending it) so i was able to pay almost a third of my tuition in cash and got a loan for the rest. Now I make a very good living as an independent network security consultant.

All it takes is parents accepting their responsibility for raising their children and not looking to blame everyone and everything for why children aren't growing up to be productive citizens. Using TV/movies (why do you let them watch those violent shows), music (why do u let them listen to that music), lack of this or that in schools (their job is to teach book reading, writing, math, history, not morals) or anything else is saying you aren't responsible for raising your child.

I'm glad I got a CS degree. (none / 0) (#111)
by tkatchev on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 01:03:25 AM PST
Now I come to work at noon. It's great.

Peace and much love...

Oh I get it. (none / 0) (#47)
by walwyn on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 12:05:41 PM PST

Masturbate in public if you can't do it it private. Oooh you did.

Ugh. (5.00 / 2) (#50)
by nx01 on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 01:02:48 PM PST
You know what type of garbage [teens] have to go through day in and day out? School, family, relationships, and thats just a tip of the ice berg.

You know, I see the error of my ways. I remember school, and how brutal everything was. Oh! Should I ditch today? What if my parents figure out that I ditched!?? Will they take away my car? I hope Johnny asks me to the prom! My parents just don't understand! They make me be in by 1:00! They won't give me money anymore either, they say I should get a job. Did you hear the new Limp Bizkit song? I love it! Oh, my parents told me not to wear my new transparent shirt without a bra! How horrible, I hate them! My life sucks, I wish I was dead.

I'm glad I finally got out of high school into the world where school, relationships, and family have no bearing on life.

I so TOTALLY agree. Anyone who's out of high school couldn't possibly understand.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to writing my dissertation, trying to figure out how my girlfriend feels about marriage, and dealing with the carnage that will no doubt occur when I visit my parents for mother's day.

"Every time I look at the X window system, it's so fucking stupid; and part of me feels responsible for the worst parts of it."
-- James Gosling

Deletion Notice (none / 0) (#66)
by RobotSlave on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 09:32:21 PM PST
A comment by user "Anonymous Reader" bearing the creative title "wow" has been deleted for violation of copyright belonging to user "nx01." Non-violating original content from the deleted comment is republished below:

"Schools now adays call your home

Most Likley

You must done stupid thinks in school

Welcome to my world

Get with the times, Limp Bizkit's new CD was out 2 years ago, Korn is the one with the New song

Girls wear transperent shirts? DAMN MY TOWN SUCKS

How do you think I feel? There are girls wearing Transparent shirts out there and non here

HEHEHE How do you like those apples


© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

Someone - anyone - (none / 0) (#70)
by The Mad Scientist on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 10:21:53 PM PST
- please give RobotSlave some work to make him less unuseful. Maybe order him to dig a hole in the ground, and then to fill it again.

Oh, I don't know. (none / 0) (#81)
by hauntedattics on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 06:09:01 AM PST
At least in this case, I think it served its purpose.

how horrable (none / 0) (#160)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 06:43:10 PM PST
If you're going to rip off someone else's post you could at least rip off something good.

thay should steal some of tkatchev's posts thay seem adequate.

That and stealing one bike wheel I just don't get

Y'know (none / 0) (#53)
by budlite on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 05:21:12 PM PST
Your grasp of the English language really shows how much of a fool you are.

How old are you, whether you mind my asking or not?

Not all teenagers are alike! (none / 0) (#23)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 05:50:38 PM PST
I cannot think of a single thing that might be wrong with teenage girls. OTOH, society definitely needs to establish camps and rehab centers for those who are toxic with testosterone. Hackers should be sent there too; they can teach the boys multiplication tables and how to tie knots.

Mr Gibbons? Yoshi? Is that you? (n/t) (5.00 / 1) (#30)
by budlite on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 03:03:24 AM PST

Correction: (none / 0) (#32)
by Big Dogs Cock on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 05:05:50 AM PST
can't think of a single thing that might be wrong with teenage girls".

I can. They know enough to go to the police. And they can't be bought off with sweets and Pokemon merchandise.

Try harder. (none / 0) (#57)
by chloedancer on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 07:38:15 PM PST
I cannot think of a single thing that might be wrong with teenage girls.

Ms. Bunting addresses this absolute eloquence and the New York Times is leading the media frenzy on the subject.

Good articles. (none / 0) (#68)
by The Mad Scientist on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 10:14:38 PM PST
Very good ones.

Children are cruel. I wouldn't wonder if many of their victims would instead prefer to deal with Cambodia minefields.

Ah, another philosohical question from Mad Geek (none / 0) (#73)
by RobotSlave on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 11:27:07 PM PST
Tell us, Mad Geek, would you trade a limb to be rid of the social wounds you received as a teenage nerd? An arm? A leg? Maybe just a hand or foot? A finger or two? How about an eye? Would you give an eye to be rid of the memories of being picked on earlier in life?

You claim to have no use for "babbling philosophers," yet you return again and again to philosophical questions. This is the one you pose now: how much of your flesh would you be willing to part with to rid yourself of the memories of being tormented as a teenager?

© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

Philosophical questions (none / 0) (#85)
by The Mad Scientist on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 09:37:00 AM PST
As my social wounds aren't more than just a side effect, forgetting them would have no effect. So no exchange here. What could help would be a computer helping me to translate nonverbal clues to what I am able to understand. Which I will get sooner or later, as nonverbal communication with the machines will be important part of human-computer interfaces of the future. So I will just borrow the necessary code somewhere, and kill the time until the necessary hardware will become common by learning technologies, and closely monitor related HCI research. 20 years of failed "conventional" attempts taught me where there is no way - so the breakthrough has to be done elsewhere.

Otherwise, I need brain, eyes, and hands. Anything other can be replaced or sacrificed for higher or lower degree of inconvenience.

Philosophers have no use - when you come to them for an answer, you rarely get more than mere babbling. It could be interesting to put two or more philosophers into an arena, arm them with knives for when they run out of arguments, and pit them against each other - the resulting fights could be spectacular. But maybe I just miss the gladiator fights...

Need help... (none / 0) (#86)
by hauntedattics on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 10:27:13 AM PST
translating non-verbal cues into something you can understand, huh? Now I understand you a bit better.

As for all that philosophical "babbling," call it whatever you want, but for better or for worse, it has been a driving force in human history. Just because you have trouble with abstractions and non-technical thinking doesn't mean that they're not inherently important or worthwhile.

philosophers (none / 0) (#92)
by majubma on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 02:25:43 PM PST
Personally, I don't have problems with philosophers' abstractions or mode of thought, but I would prefer that they didn't misappropriate the vocabulary of branches of science they obviously know nothing about. (Quantum philosophy anyone?)

-- All information wants to be free, especially information about what you do in the privacy of your own home.

Good point. (none / 0) (#95)
by RobotSlave on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 03:14:37 PM PST
Similarly, it would be nice if scientists would refrain from using philosophical language and ideas, and stick to their experiments. Really, the typical naïve scientist's reading of the difficult philosophical topic of Logic is unbearably obtuse. And the misappropriation of philosophical language like "uncertainty principle" to describe mundane physical results is rather grating.

© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

Interesting. (none / 0) (#88)
by RobotSlave on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 10:41:57 AM PST
So you reject this exchange of flesh for social well being, yet you suggested in an earlier post that many might be willing to enter into such a bargain.

If a mere side effect is not sufficient grounds for this grim calculus, then what lasting effects of teenage social cruelty do you think would justify this hypothetical contract? What terrifying permanent psychological damage would you deem sufficient in exchange for a leg?

Incidentally, you already have that computer for translating nonverbal cues-- it's called a "brain," but it would appear you've neglected to learn how to program or even adequately operate this marvelous device. That's OK, of course. It's a lot harder to figure out than, say, Linux, and even its most brilliant students are still learning.

© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

Quite. (none / 0) (#89)
by The Mad Scientist on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 11:17:40 AM PST
I am willing to enter bargains that give sense - when I get what I want for what I offer. I am rejecting your proposed contract because of lacking this feature.

Brain is a complicated structure where hardware functions are intertwined with learned ones. What strikes me as odd is that when you have a hardware malfunction of structures responsible for reading (dyslexia) or math (dyscalculia) (or many more similar things - neurology textbooks are full of very interesting examples) it is something "acceptable" that you won't learn them well despite how hard you're trying, while when the circuits for reading ie. facial expressions don't work well it's apparently suddenly all your fault.

You don't lose gracefully. (none / 0) (#93)
by RobotSlave on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 02:55:06 PM PST
In rejecting my question, you are eating your words. You said earlier that you wouldn't be surprised to find "many" teenagers willing to exchange their social difficulties for the physical casualties of the Cambodian minefield. Now you refuse to consider the trade. You have lost, though you have not been gracious enough to admit it.

If the neurology textbooks are so full of interesting examples of cognitive disorders caused by physical damage, where is the case of brain damage that leaves the subject unable to read body language or facial expressions, but otherwise perfectly functional? What is the name of this disorder? Where can I read more about the physical structures in the brain responsible for understanding other humans?

Would these supposed structures lie close to the elusive lobe that causes homosexuality, or the one that generates libertarianism? Would damage to this understanding-people area of the cranium also result in an inability to comprehend philosophy?

Would a person with a damaged body-language-interpretation lobe be able to learn sign language? Hmm? Can you point to case studies to back up your answer?

© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

Prosopagnosia (5.00 / 1) (#133)
by First Incision on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 06:05:17 PM PST
The condition of which he speaks (the inability to recognize faces or facial expressions) is called prosopagnosia. It is caused by damage to the right fusiform gyrus. The AR is correct, you might want to check out some of these neurology textbooks. The effects of various lesions in specific parts of the brain are quite interesting.

I would imagine that patients exhibiting isolated prosopagnosia would be retain any ability to interpret sign language, because I know such patients retain the ability to understand spoken language. But prosopagnosia patients also have linguistic difficulties because their impariment prevents them from picking up emotional cues so vital to conversation.

There has been furious research into possible changes in the brains of homosexuals, but I don't think anyone has come up with any compelling findings. Localization of the neurological lesion causing libertarianism sounds like a good summer project. All I have to do is ask the local police department for the names and adresses of local Libertarians, and convice the Government to compell these people to participate in my experiment.
Do you suffer from late-night hacking? Ask your doctor about Protonix.

Very well. (none / 0) (#136)
by RobotSlave on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 07:23:54 PM PST
It is an interesting disorder, to be sure, and though I had in fact heard of cases in which the subject had difficulty recognizing faces (both in distinguishing one from another and in perceiving faces as such), I didn't know the name for it. I also didn't make the logical step from problems with face recognition to difficulty in interpreting the emotional content of facial expression, though it's perfectly obvious in retrospect.

Another, and much darker, implication that didn't occur to me was that such a condition might lead one suffering from it into a horrifying disregard for others. I think I can now see how this might explain the appalling suggestion of trading teenage social slights for eyes lost to landmines.

But our subject is not hypothetical, or even an AR. Our subject is The Mad Geek.

Tell us, then, Mad Geek, were you born unable to recognize faces, or is your condition the result of a blow to the head, aneurism, or other event?

© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

Born. (none / 0) (#138)
by The Mad Scientist on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 08:32:12 PM PST
And improvising from then. It isn't absolute dysfunction, rather an impairment greatly lowering probability of right recognizing. Can be further improved by conscious emulation, ie. checklists of visual cues.

Within next 10 years I hope to be able to outsource most of these to a machine. By then the technology will reach the usable stage (and will be common enough to not raise eyebrows too much) and I should learn enough tricks to make it sing, and make enough money to afford everything necessary from the hardware to programmers to hire for tougher parts. I will get through if I'd have to run my own R&D institute.

Luckily last time the only problems it brings is talking to wrong colleagues (they got used to it, and seem to cope well with me remembering them by their computers, mails, and LAN IP addresses). And nearly total lack of social life.

Regarding landmines, I was talking about *risk* of injury, not about the injury itself - you can get away, depending on your mine-handling skills and luck. Back then, I was quite willing to handle mines instead of classmates (and I hadn't got the worst handling). I still have more confidence when it comes to explosives than when it comes to people; C4 is at least predictable.

Cop-out. (none / 0) (#153)
by RobotSlave on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 03:44:46 PM PST
If you want to talk about the risk of mutilation by land mine, then you are going to have to compare it to the risk of teenage social slight.

You may take back your earlier statement and admit that you were wrong at any time. Until you do, I will assume that you are cowering behind your disability, using it to excuse the unfeeling monster that you have allowed yourself to become, devoid of compassion for others.

While you're mulling that over, I'm interested in the design of this curious engine that you propose to construct. I understand that it will consist, on one end, of a lens, and have all sorts of marvelously clever cicuitry at its heart, but what will be on the other end? What will be indicated on the various dials and guages arrayed before the operator of the device?

Or will the device instead print out a moment-by-moment description of the subject's face, a neverending stream of mechanical prose describing every nuanced whimsy as it flits across the visage in the cross-hairs?

© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

Response (none / 0) (#156)
by The Mad Scientist on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 05:00:39 PM PST
I agree with comparing a risk to a risk. However, with teenagers the risk often turns to certainty, while a mine always gives you a chance. You never hear about the non-victims that never stepped on any.

First I suggested that some teenagers would prefer dealing with landmines than with their peers. You reacted by a question what body part I'd trade for getting rid of the memories. I answered the memories are irrelevant in my case. I just reread your reaction to this statement, and have at least two lasting effects that would justify such "grim contract": suicide, and mass murder. About the risk comparison, ask anyone who is in the bottom of the social ladder for a few years already - continue being picked on, or dealing with dangerous but not actively malicious devices.

The device I want is basically an augmented-reality device. Small camera, feeding data to a computer, then presenting them as annotations directly in the field of vision (there already are suitable displays, though horribly expensive). Most likely as combined textual/graphical representation, highlighting the important changes and eventually offering the most likely explanations. A pre-processing of the audiovisual input - converting the clues I can't see to ones I can see (most likely analog representations of some (don't ask yet what ones) measurements), a translator (then I will either learn to read the raw preprocessed cues, or will add second processing stage). Could help, and if it wouldn't, I'd at least get enough of experiences with the technology which are then convertible to money and toys; this technology has a lot of other uses.

There are branches of comp.sci research solving every of the related problem now. Augmented reality technology together with wearable computers is now in stage when it is already field-deployed (ie, military, highclass maintenance technicians, etc.), there is a research in affective computing... All pieces of the puzzle I need are already under development.

You're comparing risk to damage again. (none / 0) (#158)
by RobotSlave on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 06:06:27 PM PST
You accept comparison of risk to risk, but then you go blithely on to compare existing teenage social slight to risk of injury by land mine.

To be fair, the comparison must either be between the risk of social slight and the risk of loss of limbs, or between existing social slight and existing loss of limb.

You believe that you were at a disadvantage in your teenage social situation, but what of the child in Cambodia horribly maimed after failing to see a mine due to poor eyesight? Would you trade your condition and memory of social slight for poor vision and no hands?

Again, I find your comparison unspeakably cruel.

As to your proposed device, does it not bother you that you have ever so many ideas of the sorts of parts you want to use to build it, but no clear idea of what you want the machine to do?

Your answer to my question about your machine, buried two deep in paranthetical comments, is that you don't want me to ask the question now. Why not?

I understand, of course, that you can't describe the "clues" that you can't percieve, but what would you like them to be represented as or translated into, so that you might make use of them?

The technology itself isn't terribly interesting to me, I'm afraid. I'm much more interested in what you want your device to tell you. What do you want to see when you look at its guages and lights and dials (or two-way wrist radio or heads-up eyglasses display or retinal projector or whatever other technical gimcrackery you've decided on)?

© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

Re: (none / 0) (#162)
by The Mad Scientist on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 07:20:33 PM PST
You are adding requirements for the comparison in order to win the argument. Fine, within the conditions you set you are right.

You often have to compare risk of A with existing condition B. So nothing unfair. The method I am usually using is to convert a risk to a condition through multiplying the weight(s) assigned to a condition by its probability. Existing condition has probability of 1.

So there are people with less luck than me. Big deal, should I cry?

The comparison is cruel. The world is cruel. Cope with it.

Yes, it bothers me that I don't have clear idea about what exactly I want the device to show.

I don't know what clues I will want from the machine. I know who else needs to know the same and actually has the resources to do the research - check the affective computing link I gave you and learn something. If the machines will have to "read" the users, then they will need to read the same clues I can't. Voila, there will be an existing code (or at least the methods) I will borrow. The visualisation of the results will be dependent on what damned variables will be the output from the watch-and-analyze stage. At this moment I think it will be a sort of annotation, a graphical/textual sort of closed captioning.

This project requires several lifetimes of work so I will need to borrow the results of others. But I will need to be able to bloody-well understand the technology itself in order to rip the pieces out of some other technology and glue them together, so instead of duplicating the effort with in-depth research I am focusing my limited resources to other areas meanwhile.

On behalf of the ARs here... (none / 0) (#167)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 10:52:54 PM PST
...I would like to thank the Mad Scientist for remaining so civil during this entire (somewhat overdrawn) argument. 'Slave is rather... difficult to deal with, and the fact that this has yet to descend into petty name-calling and ad-hominem speaks volumes about your patience.

Mind you, I'm sure that many of us still think that you're a bit nutty and just slightly paranoid, but you can be assured that we greatly respect the fact that you argue in your posts intelligently instead of lowering yourself to insults and silly personal jabs.

However, "The Mad Geek" thing is pretty funny. Unnecessary and rather pointless in an argument, yes, but still rather amusing.

Once again, thank you. Please, continue.

Apologies for the narrow formatting... (none / 0) (#169)
by RobotSlave on Sat May 11th, 2002 at 02:03:59 PM PST
This will be annoying to read in the narrow little box, so do yourself a favor and click on the comment number, or that of the previous comment.

And now, back to our rambling argument...

In an earlier post, you agreed that risk ought to be compared to risk, but when I hold you to it, I'm imposing new conditions? I don't think so.

But it doesn't matter anymore. In refusing to "cry" over human tragedy and enjoining me to "cope with" the cruel, cruel world, you are again hinting at the darker truth which I initially suspected; to wit, that you willfully suppress your own sense of compassion.

I did look at the affective computing page, and to be honest, I wasn't terribly impressed. One project at the MIT media lab isn't much of a research effort. You want a well-funded, widespread research effot? Try cancer research. It has far more funding, more people working on it, and many more years under its belt. It has to date failed to discover the mechanism of the disease, let alone find a cure. And if you ask me, the problem being addressed by cancer research is much simpler than the one you propose. Then again, there may be some big unexpected breakthrough for you at some point in the future-- I'm no Kreskin.

I hoenstly can't see how such a breakthrough will come about, though, if people who care deeply about the problem, and have the training required to go into scientific research, choose instead to follow the tradesman's path, fussing about with gadgetry rather than attempting to expand human knowledge.

I refer to you as Mad Geek rather than Mad Scientist for a very specific reason, you see. And I won't accept the notion that your disability disqualifies you for this sort of research. If anything, I believe you are probably more qualified than others.

But let us continue with the original line of inquiry. If we leave aside the question of what, exactly, your marvelous machine will tell you, we can still ask the question: what do you want to use it for? What do you want to do with this device that you are so determined to construct?

© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

No need to apologize. (none / 0) (#170)
by The Mad Scientist on Sat May 11th, 2002 at 03:07:11 PM PST
I am using different formatting anyway.

You can afford compassion where it can help anything. Otherwise it is wasted effort.

If I'd have a cancer, cancer research would be helpful for me. What you are doing is like suggesting that say image recognition problems will be solved by say metallurgy because metallurgy has more funding and more people working on it.

The "gadgetry", apparently so despised by you, if nothing other at least yields great tools. Every task requires specific tools, be it a screwdriver, a hammer, or a top-grade supercomputer. Even your cancer researchers need the "gadgeters". If you need certain tools to solve a specific task, you have to develop the tools first.

What I want my machine for? Basically, everything a wearable computer can offer. Augmenting my memory (as a context-sensitive reminder), improving my navigation skills (as I tend to get lost in cities), serving as a general purpose reference system (all the docs I can ask for, available for a query - everything from a connector pinout to an API call syntax to hazardous material data), improving my senses (night vision (trivial), or if we want to go fancy and high-budget, a phased-array passive radar). Serving as a translator - look at a sentence or sign, see a caption offering possible meanings. And most important - look at a face, see who it is (or, if it will be less reliable, at least who it could be) and all additional informations that the software can extract - I will have to cope with what will be available.

Basically, what I want is a device to allow me to merge as much of my existing abilities with everything a computer (or technology in general) can offer.

Or do you have any better idea?

Addressing this madness (none / 0) (#24)
by gohomeandshoveit on Mon May 6th, 2002 at 06:38:06 PM PST
First of all, I believe that elenchos, asides from being a cynical, alienated member of quasi-human society, is a small bit messed up in the head. He must have undergone a serious trauma as a teen, possibly rape or molestation, leaving an imprint on his mind that is bitter and coldhearted towards innocent teens.

Secondly, I would like to point out that music in any form is not deleterious to society in general, especially teens. Proper education of critical thinking skills are paramount to a society in which teens and "baccanal rock and pop" can coexist. As an educated person myself, I would like to say that as a teen, I listened to a wide variety of music, including what my parents viewed as "bad music". I am none the worse for it. I have, in fact, listened to so-called "bad music" of the new generation and find it extremely interesting. Some even have serious insight and meaning to their lyrics, if you just listen to the real meaning.

Third, teens are more influenced by the previous generation and its values, for better or for worse, than any other source of influence. If elenchos really wanted to make this country better, he would have to make a positive effort towards making teens better people; provided, of course, that he is a member of the previous generation, not just an alienated teen who thinks nobody loves him/her/it and has to take it out on fellow teens.

Last, as I started off attacking elenchos' character, I will attack it again: He should not be allowed anywhere near the general vicinity of a computer, due to the fact that he 1) has no life but to become an editor of this site, a post which should be held by astoundingly adequate people; and 2) that he has no valid opinions and also has the experience in the real world and critical thinking skills of an average teenager.

P.S. Uniforms suck.

Step One: Read my screen name.
Step Two: Do it.
Step Three: Have a nice day.

Hey. (none / 0) (#29)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 12:53:42 AM PST
Elenchos is a 14 years old boy. A self hating teenager, I guess.

Unfortunately... (none / 0) (#34)
by walwyn on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 06:56:35 AM PST
... there has rarely been a time when what we nowadays call teenagers haven't been a blight upon grand society and the uncultured alike. In the most enlightened of societies they have either run riot in our streets or been out thieving.

Experience has shown that whether society takes a liberal or harsh attitude towards youth, they remain ungrateful little bastards.

Ungrateful barsted (none / 0) (#52)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 02:25:14 PM PST
Could you perhaps enlighten me as to which one you were as a teenager - a) an ungrateful little thieving barsted, or b) an ungrateful little rioting barsted?

You must have been one of then since you yourself said all teenagers are one or the other.

I can't figure out which category I fit into though. I have never attended a riot of any sort and I have never stolen anything other then the odd cookie every now and then from the cookie jar at home.

Perhaps I'm just an ungrateful barsted, which must be why I spend 4 hours a week voluntarily coaching an under13's hockey team and 6 hours a week training and working as a volunteer for the State Emergency Services, going out in the middle of storms, floods, and bushfires to help the public as part of my State Emergency Service duties obviously puts me in the "barsted" category also.

There are very few 13-18 year olds that are out rioting, most are well over that age. There are more adult offenders convicted then 13-18 year old teenagers.

Well then (none / 0) (#54)
by budlite on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 05:30:18 PM PST
Come to England, read the local headlines wherever you are. See just how many reports of brutal muggings, burglaries, drugs offences there are committed by people age 13-16. Granted, not every teenager is like that but in my experience well-adjusted, intelligent teenagers are in the minority. Most are usually one or the other, but rarely both.

You're evidently not particularly intelligent - your appalling spelling and grammar show that pretty well.

Amazed (none / 0) (#59)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 08:17:50 PM PST
Again, I'm amazed at the number of times I have read a reply to a post where the best rebuttal someone can apply is to critize the spelling and/or grammer used. It appears almost everyone here is a pipe smoking, cardigan vest wearing english grammer teacher. Words make not a man, but his ability to communicate defines him. Go put that in your pipe and smoke it. :-)

Actually... (none / 0) (#60)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 08:47:07 PM PST
he did reply to the main idea in the post, by bringing up the situation in his native land of England. The statistics in the US are not as grim, but they do support a similar view; while violent crime amongst teens in the US is down, petty crime among said demographic is on a steady rise.

Also, we at Adequacy criticize grammar because:
1. It's just so awful that we feel the need to humiliate the poster.

2. The post often does not warrant a more intelligent reponse than a grammar criticism.

3. Good grammar is an indication of maturity.

4. Attention to grammar shows a well-thought out point, one that has been given much consideration. Yes, the ability to communicate does define a man. And when we are handed an unintelligible mess with various misspellings and grammar errors, we can only conclude that, due to the lack of this particular man's ability to communicate, that he is either retarded or dyslexic.
And in budlite's case (assuming that he is, in fact, an upstanding Englishman), I believe that he had no choice but to confront this child and chastise him for the mangled dialect that he had tried to pass off as "English". To act otherwise would have been akin to treason. In fact, it was rather generous of budlite to give the parent AR any more of a response than a simple grammar correction.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I would know better... (none / 0) (#69)
by The Mad Scientist on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 10:15:50 PM PST
...substances to put into a pipe and smoke.

As it happens... (none / 0) (#77)
by budlite on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 05:10:58 AM PST
..I'm a cigarette-smoking jeans-and-tshirt-wearing computer science student.

Lack of comprehension (none / 0) (#74)
by walwyn on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 01:45:51 AM PST
Elenchos posited that the teenager was a product of 20th century marketing, that prior to this abomination there were no special problems with mid-teen to mid twenty year olds. The post you complain of, shows that the 13-25 year old have mostly been a troublesome pests thought the ages - read Chaucer.

I always preferred stiring up the discontent, dictating the graffiti for maximim impact, and organising the ensuing riot.

Blaming the victim, 'eh? (none / 0) (#56)
by chloedancer on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 07:29:35 PM PST
The problem isn't lazy, rude or dangerous teens; hell, it isn't even juvenile delinquency. While the question of "What's Wrong With These Teenagers Today?" is valid and worthy of adequate consideration, blaming them for their social reality is erroneous and pathetic.

Place the blame squarely where it belongs: on the dismal state of the parenting skills employed to raise our youth and rampant consumerism. It has been my opinion that teenagers don't revel in this ""protracted childhood", so the question to ask is "Who really benefits from this oh-so-modern societal model?" Parents benefit because the teen continues to serve as a viable tax deduction, and the consumer market benefits because they serve as a pliable and easily trained target.

Teaching teens appropriate values and empowering them to become responsible and self-reliant as early as possible is the optimal solution. Some 85 years ago my own grandfather made his own way in the world at the age of 14; more than 20 years ago I followed in his footsteps at 15 without any regrets.

Of course, there is an alternative... Cryogenic freezing could keep teens out of sight and out of mind until they become fully functional and rational adults.

You used the word "empowering". (none / 0) (#67)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 09:58:09 PM PST
Report to your room and stay there until you've thought long and hard about your actions.

Is this a joke? (none / 0) (#58)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 07:38:46 PM PST
I'm hoping your article is a joke? Because I laughed through the whole thing! It was one of the funniest things I've heard in a LONG time!

If it isn't a joke, then you're very, very out of touch with today's youth. I find it very funny when adults claims to have solutions to teenage problems. Were these adults ever teenagers themselves? If they were, they lived in a much different society than we have now.
Your 'solutions' are worth nothing more than a laugh. Get a grip with reality before you write another article.
Getting rid of jobs, cars, and music for teenagers is about a good idea as locking them up in a room until they turn 20.
Come back to reality buddy.

You know Elenchos... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
by Illiterate Bum on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 09:01:34 PM PST
I do believe that our young friend here has brought up an excellent point! Perhaps the answer is as simple as locking up all these wayward teens in their respective rooms until they're 20! Brilliant!

I applaud you, citizen, for your upstanding idea and initiative. When you emerge from your room at the mature age of 20, your efforts towards making society a better place for us all will be duly noted and honored.

"...normal, balanced people do not waste time posting to weblogs." --tkatchev

The technology exists. (none / 0) (#62)
by elenchos on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 09:13:10 PM PST
Have you seen the stainless steel toilet-sink combos that jails use? And the horizontal slot that meals are slid through? It's an amazingly functional system, with no flaws whatsoever.

In prison, there are always two men to a cell, sometimes four, or even more. This crowding is inhuman. As a liberal, it makes me feel good to know that I support one teen per cell, er, per room. And their choice of cello or recorder. Giving them choices is important for both their development and for their human dignitiy. Limited dignity, to be sure, but dignity none the less, I say, no matter what the violent reactionaries on the right claim.

I wonder if you could set up some sort of system to hose them off. Like with a drain in the floor, you know, so you could clean both the teenager and its room in a single sweep? Would it cost a lot?

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Cost of hosing (5.00 / 1) (#65)
by T Reginald Gibbons on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 09:26:29 PM PST
I'd say regular hosing would cost quite a lot if the cello proves to be popular. Brass instruments would be a better choice than perishable wood-and-string constructions. They are reasonably waterproof, and open up the possibility of a marching band, or even military service. Might I suggest the bugle?

The bugle... (none / 0) (#119)
by Illiterate Bum on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 12:33:56 PM PST
Is a bit limiting, don't you think? How about the french horn? It's very versatile, it's intellectually challenging, and it's one of the few other brass instruments that don't conjure that dangerous "jazz" image to mind.

"...normal, balanced people do not waste time posting to weblogs." --tkatchev

Dude! (none / 0) (#132)
by because it isnt on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 04:37:48 PM PST
The french horn is so gutteral and Germanic! I'd hate to think of the ideas that some kid could get playing one of those. No, Gibbons is bang on the money with a bugle. There's nothing quite like a rendition of the dawn chorus on the bugle to stiffen the sinew and summon the blood... -- because it isn't

Bad idea (none / 0) (#134)
by First Incision on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 06:08:57 PM PST
Have you ever seen someone field-strip a french horn? These instruments require a surprising amount of maintainence.

I suggest a trombone. Unlike a bugle, the trombone has a full range of notes. And unlike the french horn, the mechanics of a trombone are extremely simple, requiring minimal upkeep.
Do you suffer from late-night hacking? Ask your doctor about Protonix.

Jazz, my friend, jazz! (none / 0) (#154)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 04:36:00 PM PST
I also thought of a trombone, but it conjures to mind to many images of jazz, which I believe that Elenchos was trying to avoid (at least, according to his article). I cannot recall too many instances of the french horn being used in any jazz ensemble (especially those dangerous be-boppers like Parker or Monk).

Also, the maintenance that the instrument requires would admirably teach responsibility, don't you think? --IB (posting from work)

I humbly suggest... (none / 0) (#71)
by The Mad Scientist on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 10:26:17 PM PST put Elenchos for couple years to such cell.

I would be even willing to pay $5 for a ticket to see him sometimes after first year.

More Math (5.00 / 1) (#64)
by First Incision on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 09:21:33 PM PST
I think teenagers would be better behaved if they were forced to learn more math in school. I think if they are pushed hard enough, most 5th graders can learn algebra. 9th graders should be doing calculus and physics. Those who can't keep up are taken out of school, declared adults at 14 and given simple service jobs.

I don't know why this would be a good idea, but I have this gut feeling that if I learned math earlier, I would be a better person.
Do you suffer from late-night hacking? Ask your doctor about Protonix.

Don't forget physics. (none / 0) (#91)
by The Mad Scientist on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 11:23:07 AM PST
You are right, children are able to learn a lot of math skills when they start early enough. However, what's more important for "real life" than a grasp of calculus is a firm grasp of principles of elementary physics - not just memorizing of formulas, but rather the intuitive understanding of "how it works".

But this would require teachers that understand it already, and those ones usually have better jobs than sucky-wage-and-classes-full-of-little-monsters teaching. They exist, and I had the luck of meeting one, but they are rare.

If you re-read my post (none / 0) (#137)
by First Incision on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 08:25:59 PM PST
You will see that I didn't forget physics.
Do you suffer from late-night hacking? Ask your doctor about Protonix.

Yeah. (none / 0) (#139)
by The Mad Scientist on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 08:35:08 PM PST
I wanted to stress the importance of physics over mathematics. Math is a tool for handling the concepts of physics, but even nearly without math the physics is very useful.

Excellent. But... (none / 0) (#140)
by elenchos on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 08:53:30 PM PST
...once puberty begins, how will they study in the face of their raging urges to kill and fornicate? Even without rock music, were are still discussing the prospect of giving higher learning to what are, in essence, wild animals.

There are drugs available that will quell their stormy hormonal seas, are there not? I'm thinking something like calculus in conjunction with ritalin, physics and lithium. Initally we would have to shoot them with a hypdermic dart from a safe distance, but later on the medication could be adminstered voluntarily, once their wills have been broken.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

No will breaking necessary. Drugs, maybe. (none / 0) (#141)
by poltroon on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 09:22:54 PM PST
A clever adult could devise "labs" which masquerade as fun filled orgies, but in fact impart the foundations of newtonian physics. Similarly, anatomy and physiology can be taught by "playing doctor".

Ah! This is what got us here! (none / 0) (#142)
by elenchos on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 10:01:21 PM PST
Sure, make learning fun. Make it attractive. Make these filth beasts want to learn, because they enjoy it. Sure, it sounds so great. It would make the whole process painless and smooth. Life would be all joy and happiness for our cheerfully studying little teenage TERRORISTS!

There is only one lesson truly learned by the adolescent in such sugar-coated environments: Life is easy. Life is all about me. I can get what I want, because I'm special. I matter. Pah!

And what happens the very instant one of these little emperors doesn't get every single little thing he ever wished for served up on a silver platter with a cherry on top? What have his little lessons taught him then? To KILL!

The very second a spoiled teenagern feels deprived, he begins trying to score illegal firearms and to construct improvised explosives. He becomes a murderer. We have seen the results of this failed kind of education.

No, kids need to learn that life is not fair. That it is all about pain and deprivation. That the norm for this bleak existence is disappointment and insignificance. Kids need to be told they do NOT matter a whole hell of a lot, in the overall scheme of things.

Only through a truly adequate dedication to Truth can the future generation be brought up without being the holy terrors that dail plague our fear-ridden streets.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Clever adults (none / 0) (#143)
by walwyn on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 12:55:18 AM PST
have done just that.

Tough love now (5.00 / 1) (#72)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue May 7th, 2002 at 11:07:53 PM PST
The problem with raising kids today is we're not allowed to hit 'em anymore. We need to reinstate corporal punishment in our homes and schools. I don't mean abusive beatings all the time, just a smack upside the head now and then when they fuck up, to remind kids that the world isn't always going to let them get away with shit by just sticking them in the timeout corner. It's a way of letting kids know you love them. So next time your kid does something really heinous, give 'em a whack. They'll thank you for it someday.

you forgot to mention suicide bombers (none / 0) (#75)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 03:39:26 AM PST
who are they? Teenagers! How many of them are there? Right now there are lots but hold onto your suitcase because, in Palestine as in Saudi Arabia, younger shiftless males with nothing but ill-founded resentment to show for their dissolute, short lives will overwhelmingly dominate the region's demographics in 10 short years. Something ought to be done before the decade runs out for what might be the very last time. Historically, teenagers and their tedious "angst" have been the consistent impetus behind Mankind's spectacular failures.

Cherchez les walkmans and cotton panties!

Music for teens (5.00 / 1) (#98)
by hauntedattics on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 03:59:17 PM PST
Teenagers should be exposed to classical music as much as possible, but this should be tightly controlled. During peak hormonal transitions, they should only be allowed to listen to music from the Classical and Baroque periods, as the serene symmetry and presence of the Divine will assist them through these terrible and potentially violent times.

Older teenagers that have demonstrated responsibility over time can be allowed to listen to some model examples of the early Romantic era. However, even mature teenagers should be shielded from the excesses of the later 19th century. These works, while commendable, are not for youthful, unstable ears. We all know what happened when they were seized on by earlier unstable youths.

Classical Music (none / 0) (#102)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 05:28:16 PM PST
"Teenagers should be exposed to classical music as much as possible, but this should be tightly controlled"

When you mean Classical, do you mean Aerosmith? Old School Beastie Boys? Alice Cooper? Those are classical songs


Busted. (5.00 / 1) (#110)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 12:49:45 AM PST
The fact that you refer to the Beastie Boys as "Old School" instead of simply "Old" betrays you as the middle-aged has-been that you are, rather than the puckish teenager that you pretend to be.

Old School=Older songs (none / 0) (#115)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 09:06:12 AM PST
When I ment Old School I ment songs like "Fight for your Right to Party" and "So Watcha Want", early 90s-late 80s stuff. I like to listen to classic Rock and Rap


Exactly. (5.00 / 1) (#116)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 09:29:36 AM PST
Real teen-agers, you see, don't know anything about the obscure early work of old people. Sure, they might have heard a few of the tunes while listening to the oldies station on a lark, but they wouldn't know or care about who wrote or performed those old ditties.

Again, you've been busted, you balding, paunchy, middle-aged internet weirdo. Give it up, already.

Deletion Notice. (none / 0) (#118)
by RobotSlave on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 09:53:31 AM PST
A comment entitled "SSSSUUUURRRRREEEEE" by an anonymous reader has been deleted for violation of copyright belonging to a different anonymous reader. Original content is republished below.
"I was raised listening to stuff from 70-60's on the radio. I listened to bands then listened to there older hits, So what if I like to listen to "Jailhouse Rock"? I like the beat. So what if I listen to "Old time Rock and Roll"? I like the song, AND SO WHAT IF I LIKE TO LISTEN TO SONGS THAT ARE 15-20 YEARS OLD!? It means I like certain bands. You might think Im old but Im not a MTV popfag like you jackass


© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

NON-sexual classical. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
by elenchos on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 06:16:07 PM PST
While girls can and are physically destructive, they mostly mirror their male counterparts' tendancy towards violence with their own tendancy towards wantonness. Teen girls erupt into sexuality in their early teens, and by the age of 14 to 15 they become insatible. Their demand for sex is actually stronger than the male teens desire to kill and kill again.

Not so strong that they would want some Quake-playing dork, of course, but still, overwhelming. I remember once, this 14 year old I knew. I was 15 at the time, and my thoughts were of nothing but death. She used to whisper to me: "Let's do it again"! She'd slide her pink, glitter-nailed fingers under my waistband and pull at my cock. This wasn't in the back row of the bleachers at an assembly. This was in English class. Things like Portia and Orlando would get her going. Anything would get her going. Mozart would make her hook a leg over mine and bounce and bounce. I mean, how does a 14 year old girl know so much about what happens when her skinny leg is bouncing against the tip of your cock through your jeans? She'd listen to these Mozart tapes on the bus and by the time we got home it was unbearable. If she could catch sight of anything emerging from the top of my pants, she'd just lose it: down she'd go, right there on the bus.

What a slut. I didn't want a girlfriend like that. God it was too much. But when I dumped her (not that she'd notice -- she was too busy humping the gym teacher or some drummer in a punk band, whatever she could find), I ended up with another one just like her. It was not her -- it was all of them. Sex fiends, every last one.

I know around 40% of these girls had abortions. Five in my class of 200 had given birth by graduation, and two of those were as much into classical music as the little skinny cock bouncer I knew. She had two kids by age 20, by the way.

Thank God I got away from her while I still had the chance.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Ban the post-romantic (none / 0) (#114)
by nx01 on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 07:16:17 AM PST
I could easily see how post-romantic music could have a severely detrimental effect on a young mind.

Specifically, I would suggest banning Tchaikovsky and Mahler. I can see how these artists would send a young mind into a rage, causing another Columbine.

Of course, when they are mature enough (around the age of 20) they could be slowly introduced. Perhaps a label for this music is in order, such as "CAUTION: NOT FOR TEENAGERS".

"Every time I look at the X window system, it's so fucking stupid; and part of me feels responsible for the worst parts of it."
-- James Gosling

Post-Romantic exceptions. (none / 0) (#148)
by hauntedattics on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 12:50:36 PM PST
Older and demonstrably responsible teenagers might be allowed to listen to certain works of 20th century composers. I'm thinking specifically of the "neo-classical" pieces of Stravinsky and Prokofiev, and the Bach-inspired piano opuses (opi?) of Shostakovich. With a solid grounding in the Classical and Baroque works that inspired these composers, select teenagers might appreciate the modern twist the composers add to traditional forms. Ravel's "Tombeau de Couperin" would also fit in this category.

Tchaikhovsky and Mahler are certainly reserved for adults, as are Debussy, Bartok, Schoenberg and Richard Strauss. Also reserved for adults are any of the works of composers listed in the first paragraph that display excessive emotionalism.

Can any ban on music... (none / 0) (#150)
by The Mad Scientist on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 01:50:11 PM PST really effective, in the age of MP3s and the Internet?

How the ban would be enforced?

Hey, drugs are banned too, and check any inner-city school.

You are funny. :)

hmm. (none / 0) (#101)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 04:53:40 PM PST
your article is appalling, and most of the so-called 'facts' you presented are false. you say most teens are dangerous beings that should be locked away until the 'blissful' age of 18, aka adulthood. first of all, not all teenagers are psychopathic freaks that want to shoot up a school. i myself am a teen, and i dont have sex, i dont do drugs, and im not depressed. i watch violent movies/tv shows, listen to "sinful" rock, and yet you don't find me cutting up my arms and plotting my own suicide. sure some teens are like this, but then again, some adults have these qualities.

you are a facist elitist and i say good day to you sir.

"NEB HIGH FOOTBALL RULES!" (just had to add that in)

--gabbi h.
email me if u wish to reply

I might be pointing out the obvious... (none / 0) (#107)
by Illiterate Bum on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 09:56:39 PM PST
But does anyone else find it hilarious that this came from an AOL address?

"...normal, balanced people do not waste time posting to weblogs." --tkatchev

No (none / 0) (#108)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 09:58:10 PM PST
"But does anyone else find it hilarious that this came from an AOL address?"

No I think its just you Dumbass

How else does one access the Internet? (none / 0) (#109)
by elenchos on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 10:42:02 PM PST
Whistle packets into a Blue Box? Install Linux??? You'd be better off hopping on your bike and riding over with your post scrawled on a napkin. At least it would arrive at some reasonable time without having to practically invent TCP/IP to get connected.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

well, yes. (none / 0) (#112)
by budlite on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 03:54:58 AM PST
Install Linux???

Some do. See here.

I'll admit I'm having trouble making the software work, but if AOL didn't use some non-standard connection protocol, everything would be fine, methinks.

it's Lunix, not Linux (none / 0) (#122)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 01:38:41 PM PST
AOL is the standard protocol.

if AOL didn't use some non-standard connection protocol, everything would be fine

Ouch, Lunix threshold reached.

Real standards... (none / 0) (#128)
by The Mad Scientist on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 03:32:36 PM PST
...are documented, by definition.

No documentation available - no talk about standards. Proprietary "standards" aren't proper standards.

Now, where are the AOL connection protocol specs?

Really? (none / 0) (#130)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 03:39:59 PM PST
And all this time I thought the kilogram was a standard. Silly me.


You don't seem to realise... (none / 0) (#135)
by budlite on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 06:22:39 PM PST
...that if you actually look, you'll find a full definition of what a kilogram is, and how it came into being.

"real standards" stifle innovation (none / 0) (#171)
by venalcolony on Sat May 11th, 2002 at 08:13:43 PM PST
They do this by imposing the lowest possible common denominator on systems which would otherwise be forced to compete on technical rather than bureaucratic merit. Such systems are tellingly described in the jargon as *conformant*. Lunix conforms to a 30 year old standard. I think you know where I'm going with this but just in case you dont: conformant is an antonym of innovative.

It's a fucking paragon of simplicity, really, unless you're a Lenixist, in which case you are forgiven your congenital inability to separate politics and technology.

Your congenital inabilities aside, if you think I'm going to willingly undermine XP's native superiority and potential just so that it can interoperate with that 1% of the market running Lunix, you need to regain consciousness or underwrite the purchase of my every disappointing gadget and its software.

(Incidentally, only de facto standards become blessed with official sanction. You know what that means? It means the past is Lunix (more so than usual) and the future Microsoft and AOL. It just doesnt get any better than that, Mad Scientist.)

The difference between trolling and life is life doesnt have to make sense.

What stiffles innovation even more... (none / 0) (#173)
by The Mad Scientist on Sat May 11th, 2002 at 08:51:01 PM PST the horrible resource waste spent on figuring out how your fucking undocumented "de facto standards" work, because their documentation is either unavailable at all or prohibitively expensive to obtain. I don't care if it is a de-facto standard, or if there is a dozen of top-grade standardization committees backing it, as long as it is OPEN and DOCUMENTED.

According to your logic, conformance to IP protocol specs is apparently bad as it hinders "innovation" in networking. However, what about interoperability? The world isn't only you and your beloved Micro$hit. (Sorry, but that bloatware crashed on me again tonight, and on Monday I have to wake up before noon in order to investigate why Outlook crashes on one specific machine. Can I strace? Can I debug? Can I consult the source? No, all I can is to reinstall and pray it will not reappear. *spit*)

Xtremely Proprietary and superior? Good joke.

Fuck the innovation. I would be happy enough if all the raging innovation would stop for couple months or maybe years, and the existing implementations would get properly tested and debugged. And documented.

I don't know how you, but the image of the world where I won't have the choice between a transparent lightweight system and an overbloated proprietary monster, only because some fucking marketroid decided to wipe his fatcat ass with RFCs, makes me want to commit an act of terrorism.

As a homework, imagine what would happen if HTTP and SMTP conformance would disappear overnight. Also, describe the best strategy to cope with it; reinstating the conformance doesn't count for the purposes of the homework.

who said anything about violating existing... (none / 0) (#174)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun May 12th, 2002 at 02:07:25 AM PST
standards? No, I'm referring to what actually happens: the extension of old or adoption of new standards. I apologize for the pace of progress leaving militant lenixists behind to stew in their frustration but we cannot allow the lenixists to set the pace for the simple reason that time doesnt run backwards into the 70s.

If we pretend for a moment that no one listems to them in the first place[1], lenixists can always talk amongst themselves, cant they?

[1] That's a private joke; you arent expected to get it.

Embrace and extend. Great. (none / 0) (#175)
by The Mad Scientist on Sun May 12th, 2002 at 10:32:17 AM PST
I have nothing against extension of standards - AS LONG as the additions are clearly documented, and there is a sort of backward compatibility there.

A good example of how to do so is ie. HTML.

Dear AR, get used to the fact that the world isn't only Windows and MS-software. There are also third-party utilities for handling the files that need to know the file formats, third-party software that needs to talk the protocols, third-party hardware that isn't supported by The Beast - ie, PDAs or older machines. The world isn't only Bill, despite of his high-budget attempts to convince you otherwise.

Microsoft is a brain condition.

HTML? (none / 0) (#176)
by walwyn on Sun May 12th, 2002 at 01:37:56 PM PST
The new standard XHTML is not backwards compatible with previous versions. A strictly conforming XHTML browser would reject most of todays HTML pages. Backwards compatibility is maintained by the browsers not the standard.

XHTML vs HTML (none / 0) (#177)
by The Mad Scientist on Sun May 12th, 2002 at 01:58:03 PM PST
XHTML is a good idea. It fulfills all I want from a standard: openness. Now just hope that Billy Borg will not try to embrace and extend it.

Besides, if you need backward compatibility, you can write a proxyserver that will convert XHTML back to HTML. (And a pre-parser that will convert HTML to XHTML. All because both the standards are well-documented.)

The "backward compatibility" of HTML I was refering to was the DEFINED BEHAVIOUR of unknown tags: to be ignored. A good example how a standard can maintain the backward compatibility is ie. how an IFRAME tag is handled.

The structure is <IFRAME parameters>content</IFRAME> - browsers knowing IFRAME will ignore the content, while browsers not knowing the tag will ignore it and display the content. It's on the designers then to handle both eventualities properly. It doesn't hurt to do so.

Similar with <SCRIPT>, but you have to add the comment <!-- ... --> there to handle the old browsers not knowing SCRIPT tag.

What is your problem (none / 0) (#178)
by walwyn on Sun May 12th, 2002 at 04:56:09 PM PST
All the major browsers have extended HTML in their own way. No doubt they will do the same with XHTML, as user requests drive development. Perhaps acedemia, and a dwindling core of purists can wait around for years whilst extensions are argued over in committees, users need to get their job done now.

If the browser producers hadn't gone their own way you would still be using Mosaic.

Proprietry formats proliferate because software users can't hang around waiting for committee X to agree on some extension. For example our customers want our CADCAM software to take advantage of the latest innovations in CNC milling machines, do we say sorry 'the current ISO standard file format, is incapable of expressing the required data.' Or do we say 'sure' and output to our own format?

Formats (none / 0) (#179)
by The Mad Scientist on Sun May 12th, 2002 at 05:29:27 PM PST
Extend as you wish - but for gods' rice wine, document the extensions and provide a way to cope for those who don't understand them!

Your output to your own format is good as long as there is a way to read it for everyone interested, not only for a selected limited group. If you don't want the data to be freely accessible, it's what encryption is for.

You will sooner or later have to eat your own words when the non-standard format will cause something to crash in a disastrous way. I wish you an urgent phonecall on Friday evening, caused by some of your nonstandardness, that will cause you to cancel the next-day flight and will cost you a vacation with family.

Formats+ (none / 0) (#180)
by walwyn on Sun May 12th, 2002 at 06:12:22 PM PST
  • We provide documentation for the extensions, much like browser producers document their extensions to HTML.
  • Other file readers are free to ignore the bits they don't understand, of course by doing so the users wont get the additional advantages the changes were designed for.
  • The users can also opt for a vanilla output. But by doing so they don't get the advantages the extensions were designed for.
What you fail to understand is that propriatory formats address user needs not covered by some standard.

Formats++ (none / 0) (#181)
by The Mad Scientist on Sun May 12th, 2002 at 06:26:42 PM PST
The extensions are documented. Perfect.

The extensions can be ignored for the price of having only the barebones functionality of the underlying standard. Perfect.

You can select the format without them. Perfect.

My gripe isn't as much with the proprietary formats per se, as rather with *closed* formats, where you can't get the specs.

I hereby retract the Friday evening call wish. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

No worries (none / 0) (#182)
by walwyn on Mon May 13th, 2002 at 12:00:12 PM PST
Having a friday (or any day) evening callout would be a novel experience for us. At least it has never happened in the 6 years I've been with the company.

Use a real ISP? (none / 0) (#113)
by The Mad Scientist on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 05:53:44 AM PST
AOL is a joke gone bad.

Re: (none / 0) (#104)
by NoNo on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 07:21:54 PM PST
Now that's some quality bullshit here. Yeah, sure we all should be locked up with no entertainment until we are 18 because we are "violent self-destructing teenagers" Well guess what?! That's some really bad generalization here. Not all teenagers are like that. And those who are: It's their parents fault and not their. Because when having a child you assume full responsibility for his/her actions until his/her adulthood. So the so the "violent teen" you describe here is simply a result of poor parenting.

And as for jobs and cars:
a) I don't see any adults working fast food industry. And I doubt I'll ever see one.
b) Some parents refuse to pay for their children's even basic needs (e.g.: my parents)
c) Those without car and/or job are simply looked d down at. And growing up a looser without any social skill is no something I'd want for my children

P. S. I don't think there is such thing as "non-sexual music" music is made to provoke emotions. And which emotions it provokes depends on the individual and not the music.

Email us your location immediately! (5.00 / 1) (#106)
by elenchos on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 09:08:39 PM PST
We'll send over child protective services and the police. How long have you gone without food? Can you signal for help somehow? Is it water you lack? Surely you at least get water; you would be dead in a few days without it.

I'm thinking it's food. What is bizzare is that you have Internet access, obviously, yet lack even you basic needs. It could be clothing, I suppose. You could be a well-fed, naked teenager sitting at your parent's computer.

No matter; whatever basic need you are being denied, is here to help, and we shall have your wicked parents arrested for child neglect and you will be put in a foster home where your basic needs will finally all be met. Probably there won't be a computer, though.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

RE: (none / 0) (#120)
by NoNo on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 01:24:24 PM PST
was that a troll?
I'm not a teenager. and I did have a job since I was 14 and I still work. Is that wrong?

My parents live in different city and couldn't/wouldn't help me when I went to university here. And that doesn't' bother me. Is that wrong?

Today's teenagers are much more responsible then adults. I'm surprised you didn't notice that.

You seemed to be crying out for help. (5.00 / 1) (#124)
by elenchos on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 02:05:18 PM PST
You did say your basic needs were lacking -- to me this means you are without food and shelter, and are thus in some degree of danger.

Please realize that the Internet is not a toy. You can't just go around sounding alarms like that and expect to just laugh it off. We were actually preparing to search out your location and have emergency supplies airdropped to you. Our financial backer, Dr. Martino Cortez, PhD, is adamant about doing good in the world and has the resources to take action when it is called for. Although the sum is trivial from Dr. Cortez, PhD's point of view, the several thousand dollars already spend preparing your rescue operation could have gone to help someone in real need. Think about that.

Your little joke might seem all fun to you and your teenage pals, but the harm you caused is quite real.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

wtf (none / 0) (#126)
by NoNo on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 02:55:27 PM PST
?????? good! Can you guys send me $35OOO so I can buy a car and maybe pay my rent for me so I wouldn't have to work?!

P.S. Internet is a toy. In case you didn't realize it!

No, you can't have money meant for the needy. (5.00 / 1) (#144)
by elenchos on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 02:02:26 AM PST
Well, some of it goes to the needy, and some is re-invested in Dr. Cortez, PhD's business ventures so that he can make more money to give to the poor and hire typists.

It's funny: to prove how spoiled kids are and how they have it way too good, I realy don't have to say anything myself. All I need is to attract a few typical kids to the site and let them speak for themselves.

Upon having gotten to know you, I can say for certain there is no one left at this site who doesn't want to see you in a uniform, getting the discipline you deserve. Thank you.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Uniforms and discipline... (none / 0) (#146)
by The Mad Scientist on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 08:07:06 AM PST
...never brought anything good. The best ideas come from chaos, from an immediate thought, from watching someone throwing a dish into the air and wondering why it spins the way it spins[1], from staying in the lab over- and over- and overnight. Rules hinder inventions.

Obedience isn't a virtue.

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice." (Albert Einstein)

[1] Richard Feynmann, and how he got to discovery of something related to spinning particles

Lord God save me from "smart" people... (none / 0) (#147)
by tkatchev on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 11:58:18 AM PST
...and the stupid ones I can avoid myself.


If you're so fond of chaos, why not try starting with yourself, OK? Don't spew this pseudointellectuallist crap on us, though.

Peace and much love...

"Sexual" music (none / 0) (#145)
by hauntedattics on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 05:30:43 AM PST
If you were to ask J.S. Bach why he wrote the amazing music that he wrote, I doubt he'd reply that his intention was to provoke strong emotions and get people to knock boots more often.

Another hint: "emotional" does not mean "sexual."


p.s. I didn't have a car or a job in high school, and somehow managed to graduate with self-esteem and popularity fully intact. If people are going to look down on you for those stupid-ass reasons, then maybe they aren't worthy of your company.

OMG (none / 0) (#105)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed May 8th, 2002 at 08:40:36 PM PST
People like this should be routinely executed. I cannot believe how imamture and retarded this guy is. And look at that depraved "Vote". I've never met a teenager as stupid or as superficial and immature and inconsiderate as this eln*chos sub-human.

Jazz is the most intelligient, encouraging, mature and educational music there is. Are you telling my that Benny Goodman and Count Basie are not fantastic role models? Wow! They are the best popular teenage role models this world has ever seen.

Teenagers should all get uniforms? You miserable bastard! You need to get out more... talk to teenagers associate them, instead of lumping them into some inferior pathetic life-form. Teenagers today are more aware than ever about, life, and hardship, trauma, success and goals. And music! So many more kids get to study classical music and jazz and pursue their own interests more educated than any generation before.

And I daresay less teenagers are on drugs than in the 60s or 70s. Teenagers are aware of STDs and drugs and the emotional and physical consequences of taking drugs.

And you don't think teenagers should have jobs. WHAT KIDN OF CREEP EXACTLY ARE YOU? Teenagers take jobs to SAVE UP FOR COLLEGE, and build self-esteem and SAVE MONEY and SOCIALISE and so many other VALuABLE QUALITIES.

You are a filthy creep I never want to meet

Finally! (none / 0) (#121)
by NoNo on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 01:26:49 PM PST
I salute you!

At least somebody here has brain ^______^

Two points: (none / 0) (#123)
by tkatchev on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 02:00:39 PM PST
a) " has a brain..."
b) You're not Japanese, no matter how hard you try to be like one.

Peace and much love...

re: (5.00 / 1) (#127)
by NoNo on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 03:06:44 PM PST
a) whatever. I like my grammar the way it is, if that's whay you mean.
b) where did you get that idea?

that's rich (5.00 / 1) (#125)
by nathan on Thu May 9th, 2002 at 02:53:18 PM PST
Jazz figures as role models? Maybe if you want your kids to grow up to be wife-beating drunks. You and Miles Davis can go contort yourselves.

Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

No, certainly not jazz. (none / 0) (#149)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 01:37:53 PM PST
Jazz is the most intelligient, encouraging, mature and educational music there is. Are you telling my that Benny Goodman and Count Basie are not fantastic role models? Wow! They are the best popular teenage role models this world has ever seen.

This "music", classic jazz, can only be a bad influence on our children. It degenerately revels in the sensual and thus appeals to the baser instincts of humanity. Which is not a surprise considering its origins and influence, the savages of the dark continent.

You may counterargue that nowadays my argument doesn't hold, since jazz today is played mostly by souless, pseudointellectual white wankers. To which the appropriate retort is that yes, indeed, jazz today is played mostly by souless, pseudointellectual white wankers.

Hmm (none / 0) (#159)
by DG on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 06:41:30 PM PST
I thought elenchos hated jazz? sounds to me like he's trying to hide something..
© 2002, DG. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

I love jazz. Booze too, and weird sex. (none / 0) (#163)
by elenchos on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 07:50:53 PM PST
Lots of stuff.

I just don't see what reason we have to let a lot of parasites have that kind of fun when it doesn't do us and good. Teenagers don't know how to have a good time: they take things like drugs and make them dangerous. They make sex and driving, once pure things, into risk and regret. They are party poopers, and so why do we let them ruin everything good?

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Hypocrit (none / 0) (#166)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 09:19:50 PM PST
Your generation did the same thing only you had "Flower Power"


You know... (none / 0) (#172)
by elenchos on Sat May 11th, 2002 at 08:27:20 PM PST just aren't keeping up at all. And making up things does not compensate for your total state of ignorance and confusion.

My advice is for you to quietly read but don't post anything until you have become more enlightened. We are here, after all, soley to help out benighted fools, but we can't help if you won't pay attention.


I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Goddamn. (none / 0) (#151)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 02:21:45 PM PST
In the name of all things good, why the hell must there be so many poor excuses for teenagers that post shit here and give us a bad name? Come on, people...

1) Obey the basic fucking rules of grammar. Even I have trouble reading some of this shit.

2) Learn to spell. By posting poorly written crap, you only support the idiotic views held by the majority of those at Adequacy.

On to the real arguments. One: whomsoever thinks that the incidence of violence in schools has increased in the last several decades is sorely mistaken. The number of fatalities in school violence has actually gone down since the 50s. The difference? The attacks are larger, and the media exploits them to get higher ratings. Feigned human interest stories to attract viewers. Nothing gets attention like a car wreck or a massacre.

Two. Comparing current teens to those of decades past is meaningless. Times have changed. Most notably, parents no longer give a damn. This is not the fault of teens. Sending them to a military school is, essentially, allowing parents to completely avoid their responsibilities. If you don't want to have to work to raise a functioning member of society, remain celibate. Pretty damned simple.

So what if we do want to avoid responsibility? (none / 0) (#152)
by elenchos on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 03:43:18 PM PST
Who is to tell us we can't have kids and ship them off to boot camp where they won't bother us and will not threaten our lives? There are two very important facts here: One, kids are a pain in the ass, for everyone. They even hate each other, you know. Two, adults can do anything we want to, and minors have no say. NONE! It is part of the delusional hubris of the American teenage myth that the opinions, wants, and feelings of teenagers should be heeded. Why? How many divisions do they have? Enough of their whining, I say.

So you can go on about fault all you want. Who cares who is to blame? What matters is that we are sick of these horrible kids, and we adults have the means to end our suffering at their hands.

Why shouldn't we, if we get the outcome we desire?

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Actually We have a say (none / 0) (#155)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 04:40:31 PM PST
Cause we are the next generation! Your Generation spent there lives smoking pot and listening to Beetles, its your mistake that made us today. Its our thoughts and actions that shape the world, the way we act is studied by companies so we buy there products. Your word however (unless it's a product for adults that are in there late 20s and up) is worthless crap to them. We have more promising futures then you guys, your heading the nursing home


Those are your *wants*, not your power. (none / 0) (#157)
by elenchos on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 05:46:15 PM PST
You have no power. Do you? Think, child.

What do you have to make us run the world to please you? You have nothing.

Yes, you want to be the future. But who decides that? We do. If we so choose, you will have no future whatsoever. It is only our mercy and compassion that keeps you around at all, not any power you have.

Do we need you? Well, we need somebody to be around to take our places as we move into the later stages of life. We need workers. But do we need you? Not really. We are beginning to realize that our own kids here in the civilized Western world didn't turn out so well, and should probably be written off. We are lucky in that the developing world has a large surplus of young people who were not spoiled and ruined by the excesses of affluent life. They will serve us well in the various manual and even executive chores we need to carry us into our sunset years. You MP3 stealing, hacking, raver, sex-fiend, murderous teen monsters will have to be written off entirely.

In the far future, after the supply of decent kids from the third world runs low, of course, we need to get back on track. This is where the military shools and bans on music come in. By realizing that the young do not think as we do, nor do they feel what we feel, we can be more responsible in how we raise them, and someday be able to trust and properly exploit the next generation.

Until then, we will need more prisons, I think.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Then Don't Fuck (none / 0) (#161)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 06:57:47 PM PST
If you don't want the responsibility that comes with children, then DON'T FUCK. Stay celibrate, prick. It's people like you who just don't want to deal with their kids that are fucking up society. Military school is not an option during the early, formative years of a child's life. Thus, if you have kids you have two options. One: ignore them (in which case you have no right to complain about how they, or any other child, or society in general, turns out) or, Two: Do your damnedest to raise a functioning citizen.

Of course, if you really don't want to deal with your kids, you can just leave 'em in a gutter for social service to deal with. After all, you respond to no one. You are the boss of yourself. While your at it, go ahead and kill (and eat, if you're feeling peckish) a couple of babies and old women. Loot and riot and set things on fire, too. As you said,

...adults can do anything we want to...

~Brown (Leaver of the original note. Guess I'd best start signing.)

Discipline must begin early if it is to work. (none / 0) (#164)
by elenchos on Fri May 10th, 2002 at 07:54:42 PM PST
But discipline must be combined with deprivation. Too much ease and comfort leads to things like raving and drive-by shootings. It's the addiction to pleasure at too young an age that has made American teengers such filthy savages, you know.

Obviously I do care very much about teenagers and our future: otherwise I would be favoring just putting a bounty on them, rather than reforming them. It is a sign of the kind of extremism that you see on the Internet today that I am lumped together with those who would experminate the kids outright. Ever hear of a little thing called moderation? Sheesh!

Excuse me for being idealistic enough to believe in tomorrow. I suppose you would rather I stayed cynical and went on thinking that there was no hope. That kids would go on being fiends, and that nothing can ever be done. That's cold, I tell you, damn cold. And heartless.

No, I'm not such a bleeding heart that I think that the under-25 set feels pain or love or friendship in the same way that regular humans do, but I see something worth salvagaing there, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

With regard to signing anonymous posts, why bother? Anyone who wants to can sign anything they want. If you want to be coherent you need to make an account.

I do, I do, I do
--Bikini Kill

Deletion Notice (none / 0) (#168)
by RobotSlave on Sat May 11th, 2002 at 12:43:48 AM PST
A comment by user "Anonymous User" entitled "hehehe" has been deleted for violation of copyright held by user "elenchos." The complete original content of the deleted post is republished below:


Indy^_^ "

© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

What about Danse Macabre, ... (5.00 / 1) (#183)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu May 16th, 2002 at 04:33:55 PM PST
What about Danse Macabre, the Sorceror's Apprentice or Night on Bald Mountain? Those are non-sexual and classical (well, maybe Night on Bald Mountain is a little sexy..), but the Dark emotion such songs roused in me as a teenager are something I wouldn't want to encourage.

The Japanese approach, as shown in the documentary, Battle Royale is preferable:

In the Japan of the near future, adults have become so fed up with and fearful of their own chldren that they begin a game in which a high school class is chosen at random to compete in a game where you must hunt down and kill your own classmates.
I should point out that the reason the blurb for this documentary speaks of the "near future" is because the review itself was written in the "recent past"....

While it may seem brutal, it is, after all, done for the children's own good, much like cram school. As a Leftist, I'm sure you agree...

I loved that film, (none / 0) (#186)
by because it isnt on Fri May 17th, 2002 at 06:29:22 AM PST
although I'm always intrigued as to the significance of why the little girl at the start is smiling. Why does that make it everything OK? She killed her entire class, do you really think that her curling her lips up is the end of her burden? She will live out the rest of her life in the guilty knowledge that she is a mass murderer that has paid no pennance for her crimes against humanity.

But anyway, that was a fabulous write-up of the film. I'd never considered it from an American perspective before. Most telling was Keith's opinion on how the film reflects on the situation that kids today find themselves in:
So perhaps the final message of Battle Royale is this: as adults, we've shouldered the younger generation with a hideous burden. We've completely failed to prepare them for life. We've completely failed to teach them responsibility, respect for others, or respect for themselves. We've failed to steer them away from self-indulgence and self-destruction. [...]

And then we blame them. We blame them for being assholes when all they're doing is what they've been taught.
[...] we've started having children so we can have scapegoats and victims readily available.
This is absolutely the truth behind the MTV generation. It is a generation raised purely for the personal status of the parents, and taken in hand not by loving mentors, but by immoral capitalists, teaching them only to want and to consume. Children are taught that decadence is a virtue. They are taught to want, to boost the satanic coffers of men in suits and stove-pipe hats. Children cash in their soul at the earliest opportunity. Where are the parents at this time of crisis? Why, they're at the office, toiling for The Man, or they're having a fucking garden party to try and get in their neighbours' pants. Meanwhile, their children are lying naked in the gutter, abandoned by their parents, spurned by society, unloved.

There are no two ways about it. This kind of derelict parenting has got to stop. The time of personal responsibility is upon us.

Refutation is absolutely right that his solution to teenage problems is a "teenage solution". It is ill thought out and immature. It seeks to avoid the burden of responsibility. Look at it:
Teenagers need to be learning how to diagram sentences, memorize important dates in history and math formulae, and drill in military skills for their mandatory Armed Forces enlistment [...]
At no point does Ref' suggest any tasks for the parent to perform. It is all outsourced to the free market. A parent asks "Who can best raise my child? I am too lazy a fucker to do it myself.". They are besieged by capitalist pigs, falling over themselves to recruit another "fresh face" to stamp their corporate logo upon. The schools, the Airforce, the Navy, the fast food joints. All awash with dirty corporate money.

What parents must do is simple. First and foremost, they must care for their child. Secondly, we must prepare our children for the dangers of free market capitalism. To quote Sun Tzu out of context, "know your enemy". -- because it isn't

just remember (none / 0) (#185)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu May 16th, 2002 at 09:55:14 PM PST
Teenagers will grow up. we will run the country. we will decide what kind of medicare you have.

teenagers are dumb for 10 years, but unfortunatly most of you will be dumb for a lifetime.

A genteration ago you would be the people who hate anyone of a different race you hate what you do not know. and you hate what you fear. weather you fear what you hate or hate what you fear is anotehr topic but the fact remains you like to convicne yourself that you understand what it is like to be a teenager in moderen america which unless you are you do not. and you like to prentent that you are infailable and perfect which you are not.

Umm, dear... (none / 0) (#187)
by hauntedattics on Fri May 17th, 2002 at 07:00:07 AM PST
I hate to be harsh, but with your level of communication skills, you won't be running anything. Except maybe your mouth.

This makes me sick (none / 0) (#201)
by PunkRockerChik on Tue May 28th, 2002 at 08:17:12 PM PST
You really make me sick. I am a teenage girl and I cannot even begin to comprehend how people could so harshly stereotype teens. You try to teach us how to be good people and grow up right but I dont think any of the teens today can turn out "right" while being stereotyped like this. Obvioulsy you do not know anything about teenagers. Do you even know anyone who is in their teens?
The way you paint this picture: teens are lazy big kids who all do drugs, hack into computers, have sex, and don't do any work. I know plenty of teens (being one myself) and I hardly know anyone who is like that. Yes, there are teens who do drugs but not even close to being a majority.
I myself have never drank, smoked, hacked, or had sex, and I dont intend to. I have also been taught that stereotyping is wrong and you shouldn't judge a book by its cover; obviously that lesson is lacking in your childhood.

You are the reason that teens rebel. We are sick of being put down and judged for something we didn't do. Adults need to take the time to learn that not all teens are bad. In fact, most of them are just as good as you think you are. You will never get the respect you think that you deserve if you dont open your mind to anyone who is different.


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