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Do you agree?
No, evil-ution is a Liberal myth 20%
No, I'm happy with my delusions 4%
No, we should just exterminate them 6%
Yes, let's start rounding people up! 12%
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Yes, I want to rid myself of this taint 18%
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Votes: 49

 Religion: The Appendix of Modern Society

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Oct 26, 2001
 Comments:

Millions of years ago, our appendix allowed our ancestors to eat plants, providing a valuable addition to their diets which allowed them to prosper when game was scarce. Today the only time the appendix plays any role in our lives is when we get appendicitis and it has to be removed. In evolutionary terms we have moved beyond the need for this organ, and through the mechanism of natural selection eventually it will atrophy and then vanish, without long-term effects. This process may take hundreds of thousands of years to occur, but the harm caused by the appendix is minor, and easily fixed by medical science.

But what most people in today's world have missed is that the while the appendix can be dangerous to an individual, there is another genetic malaise that can be lethal not only to the individual, but to society as a whole. Each year this malaise claims the lives of thousands and condemns millions more to lives of abject poverty and misery, while at the same time affecting every human being on the planet. And yet few have even recognised this problem, let alone begin to deal with it before its ever-spreading reach consumes us all and terminates the existance of the human race.

Its name? Religion.

religion

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Reclaiming St. Patrick's Day
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The Incontrovertible Existence of God
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The Myth of "Facts"

The evidence for religion being nothing more than an evolutionary adaption is there for all to see, yet few are brave enough to come out and say it outside of the pages of dry journals about anthropolgy, evolution and neurology. The forces of religion are as strong, if not stronger, than they were before the Renaissance, when zealotry and bigotry bestrode the land destroying all that dared question God. In America, the world's last remaining superpower, religion is everywhere from run-down trailer parks to the White House, and those that dare to question its beliefs are mocked and derided, or even marked for death. Is it any wonder that the evidence is so little known?

But what is the evidence? It rests upon the science of sociobiology, which explains how many human behaviours are based upon our biological nature - or more specifically by genetically-directed traits that arose through natural selection to further the goal of passing on our DNA as successfully as possible. And while it must be noted that as thinking beings we can override our genetic predispositions to certain behaviours, many of them are so unconscious that they can rule our lives with an iron fist from which few escape.

While sociobology obviously deals with individual behaviour patterns, it also has a subtle effect on group behaviours as well through "gene-culture coevolution". What this says is that while individual genetic tendancies influence how a group acts, the cultural influences of the group also influence natural selection through the mechanism of favouring individuals that display traits that the group holds to be worthwhile. Such favoured individuals are more likely to be successful breeders, and their DNA will come to dominate those that do not share this valued genetic traits.

So how does this apply to religion? Religion satisfies several needs which tend to make people happier and more productive, traits which make them more valuable to a primitive society. Firstly religion explains the unknown, and serves to make it less mysterious and frightening. Secondly it provides a way for people to deal with the fundamental questions of existance - why we are here and what happens when we die for instance. By having the concept of reincarnation or an afterlife with some kind of reward and punishment mechanism, it both allays people's fear of death and encourages them to be better members of society. It also provides a way to encourage social cohesiveness through the bonds of a shared religion, which serves to keep members of the group leaving and weakening it as a whole.

For all these reasons and more religious behavioural patterns would be beneficial to a society, and those members that had them would be more successful, outbreeding those without such traits. And the vast number of religions in the world supports this - while they differ in details, they all share the same traits of explaining the unknown, allaying fears and increasing social bonding. And so, as soon as the first primitive societies formed, religious genes began to inflitrate our DNA, providing benefits to those societies whose members had them.

Additional evidence comes from the fact that so-called "mystical" experiences have a known and tested neurological explaination. When praying humans experience depressed activity in the orientation association area of their brains, the area which separates the self from everything else and allows us to move without constantly walking into things. Depressed activity in this brain area would lead to feelings of a loss of separation of self and the rest of the Universe; of being "at one" with everything - consistent with descriptions of religious ecstacy.

All this would be well and good if religion today played the same beneficial role in helping people work and live together in groups, making people happier and more productive. But look in any paper or history book and you see a different story - religious persecution, holy wars, rejection of knowledge, inquisitions, pogroms, child abuse and a whole host of other evils. Throughout the last two thousand years religion has killed more people than any other cause, and its influence upon the human mind and human society has given rise to a host of less obvious evils - cultural imperialism, overpopulation, terrorism, illness and ignorance. All of these things are hugely detrimental to the evolution of humanity, and even its survival is uncertain in the face of the blind hatred and xenophobia religion inspires.

Of course, there is a solution to this malaise. Despite opposition from religious groups afraid of losing their control over their herds, the science of genetic engineering has advanced in leaps and bounds in the last thirty years, and such marvels of modern science as the Human Genome Project are providing us with ever increased understanding of the workings of our genetic codes. Scientists are finding out the genetic mechanisms for our phenotype, inherited illnesses and even aging and death - surely it isn't beyond belief that a concerted effort could be made to discover the exact locations and functions of the religious genes that exert such a pathological influence! And then, once these genes have been located, it is only a matter of time and study before we can determine how to turn them off and render them harmless.

Once we have this knowledge it only takes courage then to take the final step towards liberation, to begin the large-scale modification of humanity's germ-line to prevent further inheritance of such dangerous genetic codes. Only then will humanity truly be free to move from barbarism under the yoke of religion to an enlightened future in which we can make our own decisions based upon ethics and logic for the good of all.

Unfortunately it is all too likely that faced with the threat of extinction, religious fanatics around the world will, like any rabid animal backed into a corner, respond with violent attack against those that threaten their existance. This must not stop us from doing what it right, and we must not hate these people - they are merely slaves of their genetic imperatives, not truly evil. In the long run, our actions will benefit their children as well as our own, and future generations will thank us.


Good proof of God-given freewill (5.00 / 2) (#7)
by Adam Rightmann on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 09:43:07 AM PST
is that this manifold character was able to write and post this solopsistic rant. Of course, he's very, very wrong. I only pray he finds the right course before he spends an eternity burning in Hell.


A. Rightmann

pathetic (1.00 / 1) (#10)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 10:13:35 AM PST
You sure throw that "you're going to hell" crap around a lot. Who do you think you are, the almighty himself?


 
Sorry (3.66 / 3) (#14)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 01:36:13 PM PST
Only God gets to make the whole afterlife decision.


yeah... (none / 0) (#65)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 02:36:45 AM PST
>Only God gets to make the whole afterlife decision.

... and Adam is telling them _which_ decision God will make.


Nonsense (none / 0) (#73)
by Adam Rightmann on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 10:01:42 AM PST
I don't speak for God, and have no say on what happens in the afterlife. What I do have is faith in God, and rules He has handed down for living.


A. Rightmann

 
That manifold guy (5.00 / 1) (#22)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 06:13:59 PM PST
He must be on some serious pharmaceuticals to come up with stuff like this. My guess is DMT or Ketamine.


 
study (none / 0) (#12)
by alprazolam on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 11:33:50 AM PST
"It's interesting that the nuns' prayer, which was more involved with words, showed activation in the brain's word areas," Newberg said. Such findings reinforce the validity of the study.

A masterful article, with an interesting and revolutionary conclusion. Unfortunately, as the above quote indicates, the study you base your assumptions on isn't exactly the most rigorous, nor does it appear to be entirely objective. To paraphrase, you're applying a technological answer to a sociological problem. Which we know won't work, because the quote is famous, and says it won't.


 
Religion (none / 0) (#15)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 01:43:52 PM PST
You said that religion itself isn't to blame -- it's intolerance. While I thought you brought up some very good points, intolerance (which is sometimes, but not always, borne from religion) should have been the focus rather than religion. If intolerance is eradicated through genetic manipulation, religion could continue to promote moral behavior.


genetic engineering is the new frontier (none / 0) (#23)
by philipm on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 08:23:14 PM PST
Just like drinking with russians, so is intolerance a muslim gene.

For those of you that are uncomfortable with the author's assertion that genetic engineering can can rid of the evils that religion has artificially let happen to the world - don't worry - when the genetic revoulution comes, the doctors will not be testing for muslimism. They will be testing for greed, stupidity and hate; and muslimists will naturally be excluded based on that. We also will see extreme advances in the quality of the human race. Once all the bad genes have been eliminated, the human race will be free to be creative, and it will truly be a millenium of peace.

The author is very forward thinking and desreves praise for his brave view point. Its a brave new world out there, and sometimes with have to give evolution a little help. Its unfortunaty that apologists like Mama Theresa and Gumby persist in taking care of the weakminded. We have to be visionary and not let them hurt us.

Who could possibly be against a warm summer day with children laughing?


--philipm

 
This flawed reasoning been around for centuries (none / 0) (#16)
by angry android on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 01:55:57 PM PST
For those who give consideration to this article give some thought to what the author is saying. He begins his argument that religion is a part of us, that is is inherent in our nature (even though his functional explanation is obviously off balance). However, because many horrible things have been done in the name of religion he argues that we should take drastic steps (genetic modification <=> genocide: rwanda, nazi germany, countless other examples) to have our "inheritance" of religion removed from within us.
The implication that (bad religious practices) -> (destroy religion) does not hold when religion causes people to practice good. Yes Christendom is in bed with all the world powers, and it has caused the death and untold suffering of millions. Should we though, dismiss all religion because of this?
The article is plagued with numerous historical and biblical refences that are either taken out of context or completely false.
Before I start ranting too much, I'll conclude that the author is grossly uneducated, disinformed, and unqualified to write anything on the subject.


I agree (none / 0) (#26)
by dissolutions on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 09:29:53 PM PST
The original author is poorly informed in history. Religions has been used as an excuse to kill. Those offenses were sadly misguided and wrong. The crusades which you use as an example contradict's the teachings of Jesus.

Athiest have killed more people than non-athiest.
Pol Pot, Hilter, Stalin, Augustus Caesar, Caligula, Alexander the great, etc...
Each of these are responsible for the murder of millions!


hrm (none / 0) (#28)
by Frithiof on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 10:15:46 PM PST
I thought "Hilter" was a Catholic, and I am also pretty sure that he had promoted amongst his Aryan peoples a variation of what Sigmund "Oedipus Complex" Freud coined "Wotanism"... I could be mistaken, though.

and even you have to admit, while certain people may have helped cause millions of people to be killed, there had to have been millions of willing soldiers to do the killing, right? there are always people willing to commit unprecedented atrocities during times of war...


-Frith

 
Your examples aren't very useful... (none / 0) (#30)
by Hammurabi on Sat Oct 27th, 2001 at 11:30:36 AM PST
If they're incorrect. Hitler was a devout Catholic. Caligula was a quite devout follower of the Roman religion, as was Augustus Ceasar, and neither one of them killed nearly 'millions'. I don't know about Alexander the Great, but his killings were made in open warfare, for the most part, and if you're going to include war in the equation, then we have many more billions of people who were mostly killed in wars supporting one religion or another.

Your assertion, that 'Athiests have killed more people than non-atheists' is ludicrous at first glance, and contradicts the simplist knowledge of history. The only reasonable examples that can be given are Stalin and Pol-Pot, and their killings are negligible compared to, say, Hitler, Kisssinger, the Crusaders, and the Inquisition combined. (and that's just one religion)


Only the most dangerous and hardened of criminals attempts to blame the law when he is the one who broke it.

Was Hitler Catholic? (none / 0) (#45)
by hauntedattics on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 04:46:53 PM PST
Was Hitler really a devout Catholic, even as the Fuhrer? Or was he just brought up as one, since most Austrians were then and still are today? I'm not exactly sure about this, but I think the Nazi higher-ups were quite dead set against religion in general. They just used Christianity as part of their emphasis on an ideal 'Aryan' construct. Does anyone know more about this?



No, he was not. (none / 0) (#46)
by tkatchev on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 05:29:19 PM PST
He and his buddies (Himmler, etc.) were neo-pagan. Theirs was a syncretic Germanic pagan cult, not much different from the modern-day Wiccans. (Gasp!) Basically, Wiccans put more emphasis on the "female" part of the cult, Himmler put more emphasis on the "male" part of the cult. (o.b. Wagner.)


--
Peace and much love...




 
Not quite. (none / 0) (#79)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 01:14:53 PM PST
Hitler was a devout Catholic.

Perhaps by birth, but by the time he rose to power he had become atheist. He was not averse to using other peoples' religions as tools of manipulation, however.

Caligula was a quite devout follower of the Roman religion, as was Augustus Ceasar, and neither one of them killed nearly 'millions'.

On this, you're correct.

I don't know about Alexander the Great, but his killings were made in open warfare, for the most part...

As was the case for most of the atheists mentioned above.

and if you're going to include war in the equation, then we have many more billions of people who were mostly killed in wars supporting one religion or another.

According to recent studies, one-fifth of all the people who have ever lived are alive today. Given some six billion on the planet at this moment, that means that over the course of history, probably about 24 billion people have died, total.

I would be willing to wager that the vast majority of these people did not die in any wars at all. You'd probably be hard pressed to bring the total to even one billion, because as you go back over the course of history, as population decreased, so to did the number of people involved in war and, therefore, the people who died in wars.

...and their killings are negligible compared to, say, Hitler, Kisssinger, the Crusaders, and the Inquisition combined. (and that's just one religion)

As I stated before, Hitler's aims were not religious in nature at all. Nor, I'd be willing to bet, were Kissinger's. I'll concede on the Crusades and the Inquisition. But I doubt that if you totalled up all the deaths from the Crusades and the Inquisition, that you would even get two million. Add in other religious wars and the figure goes up, but even so, I'd be shocked if the figure came to ten million total. Still a high number, to be sure, but Stalin alone killed that many people.

But the point isn't that atheism has killed people. It hasn't. Atheists have certainly killed people, but seldom because of matters of belief. The same, however, is true, of religious people; while many have killed people, it is not always on the basis of religion. Most of the time, religion doesn't even enter the picture at all.


 
Define "religion" (5.00 / 1) (#17)
by frosty on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 01:56:10 PM PST
Could youplease define exactly what falls under the umbrella of "religion" as you use the word. Does one need a "god" to have a religion?

Personally I think everyone has a "religion", whether or not they would call themselves religious. Atheists are their own god, Capitalists worship money, ad on it goes. Are there specific characteristics that make beliefs a "religion"?

Would just like some clarification

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger" -J.R.R. Tolkien

Common misconception about Athiests (5.00 / 1) (#20)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 03:47:30 PM PST
Athiests do not worship themselves, but rather, Madalyn Murray O'Hair, who ascended into Godhood in 1995. This knowledge isn't widespread, since Athiest churches tend not to prolesthesize much, but it's nonetheless true.


 
Good question (1.00 / 1) (#53)
by Dexter Descarte on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 09:52:24 PM PST
Does a religion require belief in the supernatural or are all belief systems religions? Most atheists' belief system, including my own, is science. Capitalism is neither a belief system nor a religion, it's an economic theory... unless one believes the universe was created by capitol outlay by God I suppose.

Websters defines religion as: 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

According to the first phrase science is a religion but not according to the rest of the definition which is, confusingly enough, not definite (especialy, usualy, often... do these words belong in a definition?). Personally I do not classify rational beliefs as religion, to me a religion requires faith, belief without evidence, which makes science most definately not a religion. God is, however, still optional; Buddhism (of the Greater Path at least) does not believe in a God per se, but still has faith in it's supernatural beliefs and is therefore a religion by my definition.


How ridiculous. (none / 0) (#68)
by John Milton on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 08:52:10 AM PST
So we should judge reality by websters dictionary, hmmm? Words do not make reality. They are an inaccurate reflection of reality. Your cute little definition rules out buddhism now doesn't it. As for your assertion that science is provable, how much of that do you take on faith. Have you ever actually tested to determine the gravitational constant.

I'm just curious about something. Since you're an atheist you can answer this question. Why shouldn't I kill people? What empirical evidence is there to prove that murder is wrong? If atheist really don't need religions, why do they all follow their basic tenets of morality? Surely, a true atheist wouldn't be limited by the morality of murder, rape, or theft. There is no morality outside of a higher belief system. There are only actions which please you and actions which don't please you. I see now why all atheists are murderers and rapists.


-John Milton

Why People Shouldn't Kill People (none / 0) (#71)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 09:53:20 AM PST
I'm just curious about something. Since you're an atheist you can answer this question. Why shouldn't I kill people?

Not sure how atheists do it, but agnostics don't kill people because we wouldn't want people to kill us. Also, killing people tends to have some detrimental effects, like being locked up in a prison or being executed. It seems religion can blind some people to the fact that some things aren't a good idea to do whether or not a God tells us so.


 
Read before you reply (none / 0) (#81)
by Dexter Descarte on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 02:32:03 PM PST
You sure are asuming a lot of my beliefs for me. Funny for someone who obviously didn't even bother to read my whole post. My cute little definition specifically addressed Buddhism thank you. Nor did I assert proveability of anything, that a theory is falsifieable is the defining characteristic of a scientific theorom not proveability which is manifestly impossible given that one can never test against the infinite variability of the universe. I take nothing on faith, science has the evidence of it's successes to back it up.

As for your philosophy 101 questions on mores; Logic, science, and empathy determine my ethical, not moral, stance. Science shows me that all humans share the same basic physical structure and empathy tells me they want to live and be happy just like me while logic tells me that they are more likely to respect my need to be alive and happy if I respect their's. The simple fact that followers of these ephemeral 'higher belief systems' have a long track record of murder, rape, and pillage blows your feeble attempts to marginalize atheists out of the water.

Now, does anyone want to discuss the original thread or is this just going to be another theistic circle jerk?


I'm quite ready to answer (none / 0) (#82)
by John Milton on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 03:40:53 PM PST
You're right. I overlooked that last part of your comment. I'll apologize for that. My eyes were watering. As for your other assertions, I'll address them.

The simple fact that followers of these ephemeral 'higher belief systems' have a long track record of murder, rape, and pillage blows your feeble attempts to marginalize atheists out of the water.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. -I John 2:3-4


Murder has always been a sin. Those who commit sin are not Christians. This is merely an attempt to blame Christianity for the sins of those who merely pretended to be followers of Christ. I could claim to be an aerobicist if I wanted. However, if I was four hundred pounds and sat on the couch all day, I wouldn't be one. Furthermore, you would not go around telling people that aerobics was unhealthy based on my testimony. Why then do you blame Christians for the actions of those who do not practice Christianity, but claim it.

Science shows me that all humans share the same basic physical structure and empathy tells me they want to live and be happy just like me while logic tells me that they are more likely to respect my need to be alive and happy if I respect their's.

That's as I suspected. You are not kind because you believe in love. You only pretend to love in order to escape personal suffering. You blatantly admit that your so called "morality" is really just a preference. Not only do you just prefer to be kind to your brothers, but you admit that this preference is only based on your own weakness. You choose to be kind, because you fear the retribution of others for your actions. Then you admit that given the opportunity to commit acts against your fellow man with no fear of justice or retribution, you would see no immorality. I'm sorry, but I would never trust my children or loved ones alone with an atheist. Your cold reptilian logic has no place in the light.


-John Milton

Begone. (5.00 / 2) (#85)
by tkatchev on Wed Oct 31st, 2001 at 02:53:23 AM PST
You, Sir, are a closet Satanist.

Every person commits sin, every day, continuously. It is part of being human; if we didn't sin, we would be mindless automatons.

A Christian is somebody who has the internal courage to admit his own sinfulness, and tries to make amends.

Important: BEWARE any person who claims that he "doesn't sin". That person is most probably a Satanist.


--
Peace and much love...




 
You answer nothing (none / 0) (#88)
by Dexter Descarte on Wed Oct 31st, 2001 at 08:11:27 AM PST
Those who commit sin are not Christians.

Ah, so really there are absolutely no Christians at all then for you are all sinners (Romans 3:23). I agree wholeheartedly, you are all really Paulists (or Peterists in the case of Catholics) anyway.

I blatantly said that I am not moral at all; I am ethical, I do not need my actions to be determined by another for I can think for myself thank you. I do not chose to be kind in fear of retribution or justice but rather in hope of my actions being returned in kind unlike the Christian principle set forth in Luke 6:31-35 which relies on the fear of hell to enforce the maxim. As for preference, do you not prefer to believe in God in preference to going to hell? Your love is hollow, formed not by any decision of yourself but rather dictated by those who control your orthodoxy and backed up by the threat of eternal damnation. My love is purely of myself, given freely by my own will to all who will return it.

Your cold reptilian logic has no place in the light.

That's all right, I can make my own through the miracles of science.


 
To whom did God give free will? (none / 0) (#94)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Oct 31st, 2001 at 02:57:47 PM PST
If you walked into your neighbor's house with a gun, held it to her head, and said "give me a blow job, or I'll blow your damn brains out," and she said "no," and you blew her brains out, would you then stand in front of the judge at your trial and say "Your Honor, I gave her a choice?"*

This is the delusion of freewill. "Believe in me and obey me, or suffer eternal torment." Is it your cowardice that compels you to obey, or your ability to differentiate between an act that is harmful, and an act that is not?

Morality does not depend from faith, or religious commandments. Morality can also be arrived at through empathy, sympathy, and compassion. These are traits that most intelligent mammals share. It is our agreement as civilized beings to treat others as we would wish others to treat us. Jesus (probably) said it, but Jesus (or whoever) was a human being, and no proof of his divinity has ever been performed.

I find it insulting in the extreme that you can say that my morality is derived from my fear of retribution. Just as I'm sure you find insulting my assertion that you believe in God and follow his teachings only because you fear damnation. However, I think my assertion is probably just as likely to be true as not. The only thing you've taught me with your postings is that you don't know jack shit about humanism or atheism.

*with acknowledgements to Phineas Narco's "Free Will," from the Droplift CD project.


 
Atheism is a science? (none / 0) (#72)
by Adam Rightmann on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 09:59:18 AM PST
Well, that certainly is news to me, can you relate some of your scientific atheistic theories and experiments?


A. Rightmann

Go back and read it again... slowly (none / 0) (#80)
by Dexter Descarte on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 01:19:30 PM PST
I said Most atheists' belief system, including my own, is science.

Now, does this say atheism=science? No it does not. You see, atheism is not a belief system as it only denies belief in a God. It has no beliefs of it's own. Most atheists are rationalists and the most popular, and succesfull, rational system of belief is science.

If you need me to use smaller words let me know.


 
Mathematics (none / 0) (#21)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 05:47:34 PM PST
Human behaviour stems from human genes, just like it is with every other organism on this planet. The basics are preprogrammed. That's why all humans act the same on a basic level.

If you take into account that:
- Humans are social animals,
- Humans are relatively smart compared to other species,
then you can put together this little addup:

genetics
sociality
human hierarchy
human intelligence
------------------- +
religion!

In words, it says above that for social organisms that evolve to be able to reflect on themselves and on the world, and that use a hierarchy for good order, religion is an inescapable effect.

Faith is an extremely emotional and animalistic property in any organism.


Bad Science! (none / 0) (#24)
by dissolutions on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 09:17:54 PM PST
I see some comments about God and science by some people who know little science. As a scientist it scares me when people quote science to back their actions, belief or morals, when their scientific facts are completely wrong.
For example,One person compares religion to the appendix as a vestigal organ of society. An old belief in science was in the theory of vestigal organs, such as the appendix. Actually, the appendix emits enzymes that Aid the GI tract. Every organ in the human body is now known to serve a purpose. You are worse off with out it. There is no such thing as a vestigal organ.
Please use accurate comparisions if you are going to back your belief with this theory.

The next "fact" is "behaviour stems from human genes". That is a false statement. For example, there was the whole gay gene hoax. The gay gene was dispoven. The researcher threw out data that disagreed with his desired results. The actually data stated that gays are not a product of their genes, but rather their upbringing, beliefs, and enviroment. There was no genetic determining factor! This was hard proof that behavior was not genetic.

The next use of wrong science is this formula:
genetics
sociality
human hierarchy
human intelligence
------------------- +
religion!

This is bad mathematic and science. Again the genetic control was disproven. People are not machines.

Someone descibed faith as animalistic and emotional. Faith is not emotional, it involves study, the practice of self control, and the decision to love your neighbor. The lack of love, lack of discipline and lack of knowledge is animalistic and emotional.

As a scientist, I reject your science as wrong. Almost all people on Earth believe in God( not religion, there is a difference to be spiritually close to God and to be religious). Science has shown, with true data from cumulative studies, that those who actively believe in God are happier, more successful and treat other people better.

I agree religion is bad. But belief in God is not religion! Religion is tradition, not faith.
<B>Science says that God is good for us, atheism is bad for us!</B>


Not much of a scientific attitude, though... (none / 0) (#90)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Oct 31st, 2001 at 08:56:42 AM PST
It's funny when someone says "I'm a scientist!" and then gives irrational arguments pro religion. Let me show you.

As a scientist, I reject your science as wrong.

OK, so here I was expecting a reasonable answer, but instead we got...

Almost all people on Earth believe in God( not religion, there is a difference to be spiritually close to God and to be religious).

Oh, come on! That's a Protestant Christian idea. Most faiths discern no difference between "belief" and "practice". Their religious services are a fundamental and inseperable part of their faith. Many Christian groups, such as the Roman Catholics and Orthodox, believe this, too.

I agree religion is bad. But belief in God is not religion! Religion is tradition, not faith.

Again, a Protestant Christian outlook. See above.

Science says that God is good for us, atheism is bad for us!

No, what science shows you is that the more comfortable you are with your life, the less stress you have and the healthier you are. This is proven fact. Find an atheist who is comfortable with his life and has the same relaxation of attitude that some religious folks have, and he'll skew your data. :-)

Try, as hard as it is, to step back and be truly objective. I did so, after 10 years of truly sincere religious belief and life, and I now see it has no use to me and, in some cases, can be seriously detrimental.


Protestant Christian outlook? (none / 0) (#99)
by dissolutions on Mon Nov 5th, 2001 at 03:27:34 AM PST
It interesting that you suggest that a protestant christian outlook is wrong?
I would be called a bigot if I said that just a ___ _____ outlook. Fill in the ethnic/racial/other group. Your past is revealed by your bitterness toward protestant christian views. Actually I am not a protestant.

Try to shoot down my arguements without that ammunition! I am still a scientist and I am pointing out bad science!


 
Bad science, inaccurate history. (none / 0) (#25)
by dissolutions on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 09:20:16 PM PST
Need I say more?


Yes, you do need say more... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
by FifthVandal on Sat Oct 27th, 2001 at 05:01:56 AM PST
...like explaining the flaws that you claim are evident in the writer's science and history instead of just dismissing them as 'bad'.

This isn't Slashdot, you know!
--- I was the fifth vandal on the grassy knoll!

 
Liberal Myths? (5.00 / 1) (#27)
by CorporateRepublic on Fri Oct 26th, 2001 at 09:32:37 PM PST
Shouldn't this be posted under Liberal Myths, since this article is a Liberal Myth?


Prove it. (none / 0) (#31)
by spacejack on Sat Oct 27th, 2001 at 01:50:00 PM PST


When push comes to shovin,
I'd rather make some lovin.



 
Mathematics again (none / 0) (#32)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Oct 27th, 2001 at 02:38:34 PM PST
Yeah, that little sum isn't real science, of course. I knew that before I typed it. You won't get good grades if you put that in your paper, hehe. But it's true, nonetheless.

People aren't machines?
Then why do they all act the same? There's no real difference between people, just on a sublte level. We're biological robots. Everything is automated, just like it is in virtually every other animal. However, the difference lies in that little bit of added brainpower. Human beings aren't more holy than other animals, though. That's misplaced arrogance.

We're conscious minds inside robot bodies (although many do seem like brainless robot sheep, programmed, by upbringing, to follow the rules of society). A body is a tool. And one can derive pleasure from it, and/or interact with the world.

Genes, they even dictate your personality ( that's genotype), but of course, your surroundings dictate which parts of your personality grow and develop to be more dominant (that's phenotype).

There is no gay gene. It's not a hereditary thing. You can't get it from your parents. It's a small bug during the creation of the brain, that causes men to like men and women to like women - or someone to like both. You're gay whether you like it or not. It's not biologically natural to be gay, but that's not really a problem, is it?

Yes, I can see how religious people are generally happier and kinder. It's very comforting, a religion. All they have to do is follow a prewritten rulebook. Bringing up the discipline to do that is hard, but still nothing compared to what it takes to write that entire rulebook all by yourself, by trial and error, constantly, every day, and NO holy scriptures to fall back on. I also want to be sure that every decision I make is truly my own, not from a prejudiced scripture.

You can see it by the time it takes. Religious children 'know' (they don't, of course) everything by the time they're 5. Me, I'm 20, and I STILL don't know half of the whole story. I doubt I'll even get the whole picture when I'm 80, and have seen it all. That would be a real bummer.

I also like - I got emotions too, y'know - to think that 'atheism' is the result of humanity growing up. Of stepping out from under God's wing. Of COURSE you're happier underneath it. Hardly a care in the world. God will save you. Isn't it time to start thinking for yourself instead of basically letting a mind-image-mirage do it for you?


 
My Thoughts (none / 0) (#33)
by egg troll on Sat Oct 27th, 2001 at 04:40:19 PM PST
The French mathematician Pascal once said, "The only way I can lose is if there is a God and I do not believe in him. Therefore, I shall choose to believe." Thats kinda my thoughts on religion.


Posting for the love of the baby Jesus....

Oh, how clever. (none / 0) (#34)
by RobotSlave on Sat Oct 27th, 2001 at 05:06:53 PM PST
Pascal's wager. Sheesh. Let's see if a two-minute google search can find any objections to that old chestnut.


© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

 
Which God is Pascal talking about? (none / 0) (#36)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Oct 28th, 2001 at 09:54:24 PM PST
Yahweh? Zeus? Odin? Shiva? Kali?

Pascal's Wager is an intellectually-embarassing exercise in mental masturbation, and I for one think it is shameful that such a banal piece of pseudo-philosophy had to come from an otherwise brilliant man. As stated, Pascal's Wager basically assumes that all gods are fake, except for the Christian god. It then assumes that if such a god exists, it will punish non-belief with eternal torture, slaughter, etc. It then says "just to be safe, I'll believe in it."

If you can't see any problems with this, there is something really wrong with you. If you really harbor god-belief because you're scared of being wrong, to be consistent you should equally believe in all gods, past and present. Alternatively, you could just admit that you don't know and be an agnostic/deist/whatever and hope that if a god or gods do exist, they will smile upon intellectual honesty. I will say this: If I were an all-knowing god, I would be able to tell the difference between people who really do believe in me and those who were just pretending to in order to cover their ass.


Theologically unsound, my man. (none / 0) (#40)
by tkatchev on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 06:11:10 AM PST
You don't seem to understand. There is only one, and can only be one God. By the very definition of the word "God" -- really, how can you have two different omnipotent, omniscient creators of the universe?

As always, atheists are quick to criticise religion when in fact their own understanding of it is laughable. "Zeus" and the God of the Christians, Jews and Muslims are completely different concepts. I don't see what "Zeus" has to do with anything at all.


--
Peace and much love...




Too easy (none / 0) (#41)
by SpaceGhoti on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 11:29:23 AM PST
By the very definition of the word "God" -- really, how can you have two different omnipotent, omniscient creators of the universe?

Definition of "god" thoughtfully supplied by the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality


Therefore, you can have a pantheon if your beliefs dictate that the Universe is not under the control of a single omnipotent, omniscient being, but a host of beings each devoted to a specific aspect of life or nature. Therefore, the poster's premise is still accurate, if not popular. It still works if you suppose that a single omnipotent, omniscient being created lesser gods to keep things running smoothly. Historically, gods tend to be awfully lazy unless aroused (in all senses of the word). Even the Judeo-Christian god is recorded as taking a brief holiday.

That was too easy. At least try to post something logically defensible!



A troll's true colors.

Fuck off, dictionary boy. (none / 0) (#42)
by tkatchev on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 01:22:45 PM PST
Reread my commentary again, and learn to think without the aid of a dictionary.

The original premise still stands. Pascal was specifically talking about the Christian God, not some abstract "god" that you invented out of thin air. The thing is, there is no way to know whether God (the God, not some fairytale fantasy you happened to make up) exists or not. Either way, you just have to take it on faith. (Or personal experience.) The crutch is, you would lose nothing if you assume that God exists, (except your own sinful pride, of course) while you would lose eternal salvation if you assumed that God does not exist.

I still don't see what "zeus" has to do with anything. It's not like anybody is threatened with eternal damnation for not believing in "zeus".


--
Peace and much love...




pascal's wager... (none / 0) (#43)
by nathan on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 03:00:40 PM PST
Listen, if God is such an unbelievable pansy that he'll let me get away with flagrant shit like 'believing' in order to cover my own ass, five minutes after I'm up there, he'll be my bitch, doing my fetch-and-carry, dig?

Presupposing the existence of the Christian God is indefensible unless you dilute Him to nothing by talking about the omnipotent creator of the universe rather than in Christian terms that apply specifically to the God under discussion. It's not clear that, eg, the omnipotent creator of the universe has to be a triune divinity, a portion (person?) of which took on the form of a Jew circa 3 BCE. Anyway, if faith is all you have to go on, you've already lost, because you'll waste the only life you'll ever get trying to prepare for a fictitious afterlife.

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

But of course... (none / 0) (#44)
by tkatchev on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 03:22:21 PM PST
...God is love. He loves us so much that He forgives us for acting like jackasses. (If you think that love makes you a "pansy", then I suggest you kill yourself now, so that you can go to hell as soon as possible and meet like-minded individuals.)

Again, all arguments about the existence or non-existence of God are indefensible. All it takes to attain eternal salvation is to submit, to bridle your pride. Even that, however, seems too much to ask. *sigh* God must have infinite patience...

P.S. Please do not confuse the Christian definition of "God" with a concrete concept of the God Christians believe in. Indeed, there is nothing that says that God is a tri-union of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This doesn't follow from the definition of "God", but Christians choose to believe in the concept for a variety of reasons. Although, it was not always that way; at the dawn of Christianity, there were other competing versions that rejected the tri-unity -- the so-called arian and monophysite heresies. The belief in the tri-unity is a concious, rational choice.


--
Peace and much love...




God may love us... (none / 0) (#48)
by nathan on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 06:34:42 PM PST
but that has nothing to do with Pascal's wager, which is about belief on our parts, rather than love on God's. Pascal's wager tells us that we should believe in God, because hell is worse than nothingness. The question of our belief has nothing to do with what's "right" or "wrong." It's enlightened self-interest. He's not even asking us to love God, only to play the odds intelligently (as he sees it.)

You'll notice that that otherworldliness licenses us to ignore most of the evil going on in the world. After all, if what matters is Heaven and God's love, you ought to worry about your status with God rather than the world, others, or even your worldly self.

It seems to me that a loving God would demand, not belief, but humble struggle against evil for the good of your fellows. I guess that makes me a Communist. I'll just have to live with my evilness.

Your Orthodox church doesn't have such a clean record, either. Byzantine is a term of derogation for a reason. The old Roman Orthodox empire was content to keep its peasants down while ceaseless intrigue of the foullest kind bubbled in the courts. This, like Soviet history, says more about the corrupting nature of power than about the inherent evil of a religion or social movement. In fact, any social or religious movement is going to get blood on its hands sooner or later.

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Yeah... (none / 0) (#49)
by tkatchev on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 07:19:54 PM PST
The relationship between man and God is always strictly personal. It's as simple as that; anything else isn't God's work.


--
Peace and much love...




I'm baffled! (none / 0) (#54)
by nathan on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 04:59:41 PM PST
So what does that do to your defence of Pascal's Wager? For the record, I like this religion more the more it divorces itself from theocratic policy... maybe there's something in it after all...

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

 
A little better (none / 0) (#57)
by SpaceGhoti on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 06:42:20 PM PST
I use the dictionary because you invoked it. "The very definition of God..." My apologies if rising to your challenge rouses your ire. However, when attempting to flame someone for their words, one must be very careful of one's own phrasing.

I was vaguely familiar with the reference to Pascal, although I'd never done any serious reading on it. For the sake of argument I decided to look it up and see what people on the Net had to say.
  • The first hit returned a society of free-thinkers who rejected Pascal's argument on the grounds the dependence on an almighty creator denies the power of the individual. It is their position that we demean ourself and limit our potential by clinging to God like children to a parent.
  • The second hit returned a poorly argued stance that Pascal's argument is definitive proof that we all ought to believe in God. It does not address my original concern, that it doesn't answer the question of which God, since humans have invented so many. Just because you prefer one doesn't make it the default selection.
  • The third hit returned much better arguments, but still ignores the issue that people disagree on God Herself and what She wants.
  • The fourth hit returned a mathematical argument, defining Pascal's Wager in mathematical terms. Very enlightening and fascinating if your'e into that sort of stuff, but still failing to address an underlying problem with the argument.
  • The fifth hit is when the athiests sound off again (About.com has a whole section on it) pointing out my question about polytheistic religions. I guess I wasn't so far off the mark after all.
  • The sixth and last hit I researched reviews Ravi Zacharias' work, Can Man Live Without God from an athiest's viewpoint. With regard to Pascal's Wager, Jeff again questions which God we're supposed to believe in, using Pascal's logic.


Obviously, for you the answer is "believe in the Christian/Catholic Western God." That's good for you. For those of us who aren't convinced by Christian/Catholic arguments and history, the answer is slightly less simple.



A troll's true colors.

 
Give Pascal some credit (none / 0) (#52)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 09:43:21 PM PST
I still don't see what "zeus" has to do with anything. It's not like anybody is threatened with eternal damnation for not believing in "zeus".

This is actually a pretty valid point. Out of all the known world religions, Christianity is by far the most violent and terrible when it comes to predictions about what will happen to non-believers. This, along with the military might that accompanied it during its early years, does well to explain its widespread nature. Therefore it stands to reason that if you were going to believe in any god out of fear of torture, Yahweh would be the obvious front-runner. However, it does not explain why any legitimate religion with any measurable worth would require its adherents to be frightened into submission.


Islam is just as bad. (none / 0) (#55)
by nathan on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 05:00:25 PM PST

--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

No, it isn't (5.00 / 1) (#58)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Oct 29th, 2001 at 08:11:53 PM PST
Stop listening to Rush Limbaugh and Pat Robertson and all of these right-wing ideologues who preach that Islam is a religion of war and murder. The Koran actually has a chapter called "The Unbelievers" (translated to English, of course.) Here is the complete text:
The Disbelievers
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[109.1] Say: O unbelievers!
[109.2] I do not serve that which you serve,
[109.3] Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.4] Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,
[109.5] Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:
[109.6] You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
Challenge: Demonstrate a passage from the Bible that promotes tolerance of this sort.


yes, it is! (none / 0) (#67)
by nathan on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 05:39:59 AM PST
My politics are so far to the left that it hurts my brain. Please shut up about Limbaugh. And please don't assume your opponent is stupid.

The Koran != Islam, and there are lots of obnoxious things in both the Koran and tradition. Reread your sources, and if you cite primary sources, you better respect both sides of the argument, or you're no better than the lowest apologist. Christ.

Here's a relevant link.

NAthan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

 
Refutation (none / 0) (#75)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Oct 30th, 2001 at 10:41:48 AM PST
Actually buddy, the Koran has some vivid descriptions of the Hell you are going to face when you die (assuming you are not Moslim).

The Koran has no pity for non-believers, as a multitude of passages contained within describe the relentless torture to which they will be subjected in Hell. Another indication of this occurs in the Koran. Regarding those who deny the Lord, it is written, "for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), 'Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!' (Koran 22:19-22:23, www.islamicity.com)."


 
can do (none / 0) (#98)