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Goths should be:
Sent to Christian camps of re-education 8%
Imprisoned 1%
Deported to Siberia 20%
Made to work in the fast food industry 21%
Given prozac to cheer them up a bit 27%
Given bleach to lighten up their clothing 20%

Votes: 107

 Goths and Vampirism - A final solution?

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Jul 16, 2001
Goths are well known to be a troubled, sombre people. They are common in our cities, schools and even universities, dressed in black, the colour of evil, and forming strange cliques that no normal person can penetrate or even understand. As the many incidents of school violence in America today have shown, Goths can be very dangerous, because they worship a certain type of evil and have no respect for the rule of law.

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The history of Goths goes back a long way, back to pre-Christian times. When they were exanding their empire to the Rhine the Romans first stumbled on their perfidious influence. The Germans, that brutal race, were forced against the border of the Roman Empire again and again by the Goths behind them pushing them on. Originally a far eastern people, the Goths came down from the steppes of Russia to mainland Europe around 200 AD, and started harassing the Romans, the font of civilisation. The Romans had a fatal lack of judgment however; instead of sallying forth to destroy the insidious Goths when they had the chance, they settled on a policy of resistance and non-expansionism.

A fatal mistake. When Rome burned under the hands of the barbarian Goths in the fifth century, the light of civilisation went out across Europe, and the Dark Ages followed.

Now, in modern America, we find that the Goths are back and their aims are even worse than before. This time the dark hordes have been brought up in civilisation, but have chosen to reject it. They use the internet, word of mouth and extreme peer pressure to spread their creed and worldview across the highschools of America and beyond. Goths hate learning and civilisation. They hate schools and decent, honest, ambitious children so much that they have started to shoot them. They turn their backs on learning and reasonable, Christian behaviour, prefering to worship barbaric practises - Goths love death, magick, mysticism and indeed anything they can use to attack normal society with.

Even more shockingly, many Goths are vampires (or as they term it, vampyres). They adore going out at night, kidnapping young virgins (virgins are much prized in Goth culture, though hard to find) and sucking their blood. Of course, this tends to get them into trouble with the law, so they have formed vampire donor groups, where they suck innocent young people into voluntarily donating blood.

Goths also deny their sex. They consider themselves androgynous. This is so perverted it is unreal - and it explains why so many of them insist on wearing concealing clothes and adopting strange, asexual names. Where good Christian women know their place and live as good homemakers in the nest, female Goths like to defy their feminine nature and behave in extremely agressive ways.

Indeed, the entire Goth scene is all about power. Nothing is more gratifying to a Goth than to gain control over someone, and their sexual games are wrapped up in power and domination/submission. Once they have honed their power wielding and intimidation abilities, older Goths use them to ruthlessly recruit new Goths into the path of darkness. Many a true-blooded Christian has been seduced by the thought of power over others, or the thought of being in the thrall of another. All Goths are either megalomaniacs or degenerate wretches. Handcuff sales in Goth-rich cities, such as Austin, are up to three times greater than in cities with no noticeable Goth scene, like Seattle.

Goths are disturbingly sex crazed. No practice is too perverted for them - they far prefer the beast of one back to the beast of two, and they have no concept or understanding of monogomy or partnership. Raw, animal sex is all they understand, with as many partners as they can get. One would almost feel sorry for them, and their lack of understanding of the power and pleasure of love, were it not for them deserving condemnation for their wicked lustfulness.

You may think that many Goths just like the scene because they get to dress up in many cool shades of black and meet people who share their interests, but in actual fact the world of the Goth is utterly subversive and incredibly dangerous. I spoke to a young man named Kevin(*), who was in the Goth scene for 15 years, from the age of 12. Here is a short transcript:

bc: What made you become a Goth?

Kevin: When I was just about a teenager, I hated school and learning, and hated going to church. One day, on a Sunday when I was supposed to be at church but was instead hiding in the graveyard outside, I fell in with a group of Goths. They seemed really rebellious to me, wearing all black and having contempt for learning but an interest in strange things, like magick and Nazi SS memorabilia.

bc: What happened to your school performance after you became a Goth?

Kevin: My school performance immediately plummeted. The Goths all insisted that school was for people who weren't 'free thinkers' and they filled me with hate towards my fellow schoolchildren. They thought they were 'apart' and better than everyone else. I never studied, and only read about magick and vampirism if I read at all. It was a terrible period in my life.

bc: What happened after you left school?

Kevin: New York called out like a siren to me - a notable city of deviants, I was drawn to it and the Goth community there. Goths are all into BDSM and the more extreme ones become Vampires. It was this I was attracted to and this I got involved in.

bc: Did you have any experiences in the Vampire community?

Kevin: Yes. I was enticed into the Vampire community, which is just the logical conclusion and destination of the Goth scene. It started innocently - I was approached in a club (the 'Torture Gardens') and asked to be a donor by a friend who I trusted at the time. Before long I was donating blood to Vampires - we would meet up, and they would cut my jugular with a razor and suck a good pint off. After a while, things got worse and I was asked to participate in 'bloodsports' - disgusting sexual games and perversions with fresh human blood as the main theme. It was after one night of this, in 1998, when, feeling weak and emaciated (having sucked on and been sucked upon) that I realised how far I had fallen.

bc: How did you get out of the Goth community?

Kevin: When I realised how low I had become, I started to investigate again the teachings of Jesus Christ of Nazareth our Lord and Saviour, who died for our sins. I realised that Jesus will forgive all, even those who worship Satan by proxy, such as Goths. I became a born again Christian and renounced the ways of Goths for all time. At first it was hard - Goths insist on trying to make everyone think like them, and are not above using physical violence and casting Wiccan spells to impose proper thought. I had to leave New York. Now that I have found the Lord I work as a missionary in the Goth community, encouraging Goths to renounce the ways of Satan and affirm their faith in the Lord.

So there we see that Goths are extremely subversive. Not content with Vampirism, blood sucking and worshipping Satan by proxy, they insist on proselytising and attacking all free thinkers and lovers of Jesus. The question is, what can be done to stop them? Simple:

  • Wearing of black banned in all schools. Goths prey upon the young and weak - no right thinking adult would become a Goth, so they depend on hoodwinking immature minds to spread their deviant, dangerous creed. Like Scots with Tartan, or Jews with skullcaps, it is well known that stomping out the clothing of the creed harms the creed itself. We must fight fire with fire - we must not lose the raging battle for the minds of our children.
  • More Christian education in schools. The fact that these demonic ways of thinking are spreading among adolescents is entirely due to the lack of proper religious education in schools. Beelzebub, through his high school intermediaries, is filling the gap and turning the minds of our children to poison.
  • All people suspected of being goths should have their bloodcounts regularly measured. If there is a shortfall, clearly they must be participating in Vampiric and Goth-like behaviour, in which case they can be sent to a place of Christian re-education.
  • No cliques allowed in schools. If we look at high school 'jocks' we can see that they provide a wonderful role model for our children. We should elevate them to a position above other children and encourage all children to be like them.
  • Ban long hair. It is well known that long hair is not Christian. No followers of Jesus ever had long hair, so all those with collar length or longer hair are under suspicion. All schools should insist in properly cropped hair, except for girls, for whom the converse applies.
  • Goth music, like the Sisters of Mercy, the Cure, and so on must be completely stamped out. We should encourage decent Godly music, like 'Yesterday' by Paul McCartney or Handel's Messiah. It has been shown that the music Goths listen to promotes depression and antisocial behaviour.
  • Earpiercings, tatoos etc banned. Another hallmark of the Goth is bodily modification. This is because they don't respect the body God gave them, and eventually they hate it. So they seek to 'improve' it with beastly decorations and implants. This must be stopped so we can have a reasonable, whole society again.
It is only by righteous and tough love that we will exterminate this warped creed from the minds of the young. Let there be a mighty awakening across America, and a damnation of all heathens and unbelievers, such as Goths.

(*)-Name concealed to protect 'Kevin' against retribution.


Well (2.50 / 4) (#20)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 03:58:57 PM PST
Speaking as a Christian I can't promote vengeance, Christ taught us that is wrong.

However these Goths are very dangerous, you see them congregating by a bus shelter near where I live, and crime is high there.

Education is what I recommend. Maybe when people are educated better they will not become Goths.

Goths and the like are just the victim and result of ignorance in our society, IMHO. Educate them and they will cease to be Goths.

Education (3.66 / 3) (#22)
by SpaceGhoti on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 04:55:25 PM PST
Most of the Goths I know are better educated than you, and could intelligently discuss the strengths and flaws of Shakespearean sonnets.

Most of them also wouldn't lift a finger to harm you unless you decided to try to preach at them or try to ruin their mascara. In which case, the stomping of boots would be swift and brutal. They're far more amused by your reaction to their appearance than any juvenile need to compare genital sizes.

The more you disapprove, the more fun it is for me. You think that's ignorant? They know you better than you know yourself.

A troll's true colors.

Humanity...what is it? (5.00 / 2) (#25)
by Carrie on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 07:29:19 PM PST
As a human being...I think it is wrong to point a finger at a certain group of people for any type of violence. If your not goth or ever been goth you wouldn't understand the lifestyle. Just like me not being a christian..doesn't mean I go around saying christians are bad, or that they are brainwashed. I do not point my finger. It is disgusitng that people bring up Columbine and Goths in one sentence.

I could go on and on. But I just wanted to say a little something....just a thought. And another is no wonder a lot of people have lost faith in humanity. Bad seeds should be thrown out...not cultivated!

~*~ Carrie ~*~
~*~ Carrie ~*~ ---- "Who will save the sane..." - T.O.N.

Thank you (4.50 / 2) (#26)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 07:40:49 PM PST
I agree that we shouldn't point the finger at any group.

As a christian, I believe that it is extremely important to live and let live, but I also believe that our children should have strong moral educations (not necesarily Christian ones, I am open about that).

Most Goths seem ok to me, but what about the more extreme ones? Like the Vampire types. Duch people do exist - people who will drink human blood and so on. Wouldn't it be fair to say that such people are a tad mentally ill or something?

Perhaps as long as they don't harm anyone they should be left alone, but I think that such things should be looked into definately (vampire donor groups and such, that is).

I'm sorry I am not arguing very well and it is late where I am.

Peace, Dave.

If I may make a suggestion... (none / 0) (#146)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 10:58:02 PM PST
I agree that we shouldn't point the finger at any group.

As a christian, I believe that it is extremely important to live and let live, but I also believe that our children should have strong moral educations (not necesarily Christian ones, I am open about that).

Most Goths seem ok to me, but what about the more extreme ones? Like the Vampire types. Duch people do exist - people who will drink human blood and so on. Wouldn't it be fair to say that such people are a tad mentally ill or something?

I would agree - but I would also hasten to add that on the flip side, wouldn't you also say the same for people that kill in God's name? It is funny, when violence is initiated by other cultures, Christians will point the fingers very quickly in this case - when they perform the violence though, other Christians will be VERY quick to state "well, they weren't REAL Christians then!" That's foolish; even the followers of God would commit very bloody atrocities in his name (check out your Old Testament for that), with God's blessing!
The point is that anyone can harm others. ANYONE. Anyone can be considered a loon, or unstable; whether it be a Christian, Atheist, Wiccan, or Goth...Hiding behind a moral curtain will do nothing but salve your conscience - it won't do anything to address the problem (that these people were screwed up to begin with).

Priest Apostate

wanna chat?


re: well (none / 0) (#55)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 02:52:32 PM PST
Speaking as a Buddhist I can't promote vengeance either, or intolerance or bigotry. It's bad for your soul.

However, I don't see how using public transportation makes one dangerous. Some people just don't own cars and like to go out dancing with a group of their friends. Yes, crime rates are high in low income areas. Are you saying the poor are dangerous?

Most of the goths I've met are educated, or at least well read, and tend to be a literate group. Not unlike another black wearing subculture: the beatniks. Of course, I'm sure beatniks and Jazz would not be considered a positive influence to the author of this page.

Yes, goths are the victum and result of ignorance in our society. When they see how well ignorance is rewarded in the form of conformity, they turn away from it. When the majority is looking for someone to blame, in their ignorance they point their finger at anyone who doesn't fit in.

- Anju

*Looks shocked* (none / 0) (#82)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 02:06:04 PM PST
Congregating in bus shelters?? OOh how sinful! I will never go near another bus shelter again!! LMAO What's next? Loitering with intent in MacDonalds?? How sick and sad are these paranoid maniacs?

hhhhhmmmm Bus Shelters a new place of evil ? (none / 0) (#87)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 04:27:18 PM PST
Goths congregating at Bus shelters, could it be too much to imagin that they're taking part in the ultimate evil.... waiting for a Bus.

Oh The Horror

Personally the thought that goths are dangerous is the same as saying that Adolf Hitler was a well balanced individual with a great respect for Jewish traditions.

Goths seem to have the most telerant view of society and don't pick judgement on others, because we have judgement and scorn poured on from nearly every other corner, aparantly having the ability to express yourself in a different way is a sin but to follow the crowd isn't it a sin to waste the gift of free will that was given to you. True there are limits but the clothes that people wear can hurt no one. If black is the colour of evil wouldn't that make Priests and Nuns evil due to their black garb?

A closed mind must be one of the most sad things to have control of.

RE: Well (none / 0) (#119)
by gotblack on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 08:25:43 AM PST
Perhaps it is YOU who needs education.

Lesson one:
Don't speak as a Christian. You'll embarrass the whole religion.

Lesson two:
A high crime rate in an area where you've seen goths congregate does not mean those goths are criminals and does not mean that they are dangerous. I would venture to guess that the high crime in your poor little neighborhood stems from criminals you don't see. Further, were you to set up a Block Watch (or similar, proactive community program) instead of posting uneducated comments to this forum, perhaps you might be able to clean the neighborhood up a bit.

Lesson three:
Being a goth is a matter of personal style, interest in music, etc. This is much like being Country. If you enjoy wearing the cowboy hat listening to songs about misfortune and speaking with a twang, go right ahead. Or, according to your theory, education might rid one of such evil desires. After all, they must all be six-shootin', rabble rousin', beer 'n' whiskey swillin' hicks. Go git 'em!

Lesson four:
Isn't it obvious who here is a victim of ignorance in our society?

Speaking as an educated Goth ... (none / 0) (#141)
by JosieNutter on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 04:55:38 PM PST
Any time you classify a stereotype, you make a fool of yourself.

Hi, my name is Josie. I'm a Goth.

I'm twenty-three years old and happily, monogamously married. I have been a part of the Goth subculture since high school.

During school, I was a cheerleader, played Varsity soccer, in the Jazz band, marching band and State-competitive Wind Ensemble; on the math meet team, in Advanced Placement English, Science, Math and Spanish; volunteered for several leadership projects and was my school's chosen representative for the Madison 2000 program. My ACT assessment results ranked in the top 1% of my graduating high school class.

I speak English, Spanish and Japanese.

Instead of going to college, I started working for Microsoft directly after graduation. I am now a web developer for a prominent Internet infrastructure provider and make more money per year than both my parents combined.

I do not smoke. I do not do drugs. At the moment, my wardrobe is primarily composed of pink and purple garments. I revel in my femininity.

I am not agressive. Actually, I consider myself to be extremely non-confrontational, almost to a fault.

I do not worship Satan. I do not think I am a vampire. I do donate blood to the Red Cross -- I'm a Universal Donor (O+) and they are very grateful to see me every 52 days.

In my life, I have had fewer sexual partners than I can count on one hand.

I also consider myself to be fairly representative of the small social circle I belong to; don't think that I am an 'exception to the rule'.

Don't assume. You know how the saying goes.

-- Josie

more educated goth-ness (none / 0) (#165)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 08:56:48 PM PST
I haven't explored this site enough to determine whether it's similar to the Overland Baptist pages.. or if they're for real (slow ISP at home.. will explore more from work) but I did want to say a few things.

"Educate them and they will cease to be Goths."

I must assume you mean educate them in "christian ways" because as a few other people pointed out, a large percentage of goths are quite well-educated. Mostly on our own, actually. We seek out English literature from the "gothic" period and educated ourselves. I've read Oscar Wilde, and Baudelaire, John Donne and Ben Jonson. I started reading Shakespeare in grade school. My current favorites are Alexandre Dumas and Victor Hugo. How many fundamental Christian friends of yours have read Les Miserables (before it was made into a Broadway musical), The Hunchback of Notre Dame, or the Count of Monte Cristo? of course... after this site, I'm tempted to go buy a copy of Faust!

While I listen to quite a bit of "goth" music and have been in the scene for 14 years, one of my favorite pieces of music is Beethoven's "Ode To Joy", I don't do any drugs more potent than an Advil for headaches, I barely drink (1 hard cider every few weeks, maybe), and the only blood I've ever tasted in my life is from cutting my finger while cooking, or a papercut, and the first thing you do is stick it in your mouth to try and stop the bleeding!

I'm a 29 yr old web developer for a Fortune 500 company, I sometimes dye my hair bright reds or purples, I have a tattoo of spiritual significance (native american, long story), and my mother is proud of me. She's a blue-eyed blonde, lexus-driving yuppie in Colorado and we talk over IMs just about every day. I run a fairly popular gothic website, have a fake spider the size of a dinner plate hanging over my desk, and wear lots of black to work, and yet my boss thinks highly of me and gave me a fantastic review, as well as making me cry when I won the "quarterly workhorse award" at my company earlier this year.

Do I sound like a sex-crazed, drug-frenzied, society-hating freak?

The only complaint my mother has about me is that I could not get my hair back to a completely normal color before my grandmother's funeral, and that I haven't made my mother a grandmother yet. I told her that has to wait till I fall in love and get married first. Oh wait.. goths aren't supposed to care about love, isn't that right?

Hate to tell you this, but a large part of being goth is thinking about love... the lack of it, the desire for it, etc. Goth is embracing your depression and working through it in types of art, such as writings or music, rather than running to the dr. and getting a prescription for prozac. we see the value in experiencing our emotions and learning from them, rather than denying them. That's one of the reasons goth music is so depressing ;p

Have to go now, I'm late to the San Diego Comic Convention! are comics evil? ;p


Re: Well (none / 0) (#184)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 23rd, 2001 at 06:27:02 AM PST
I have a MA in Psychology. A honours degree in Religious Studies. I'm a certified Microsoft Developer, a Certified Oracle Developer. I speak 3 languages, and am currently doing my PhD. I'm a Christian, a Goth, 35 years old and never depressed.
Just how much more education do I need.
I do however fully agree with you that people should be educated, especially narrow minded Christian who don't practice what they preach. Read your bible and stop being judgmental

The Goth Lifestyle Is Quite Understandable (3.66 / 3) (#21)
by Peter Johnson on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 04:44:56 PM PST
It's all about stress reduction:
  • What do I wear today, the black outfit or the black outfit?
  • Hrm... Do I want to read about vampires or werewolves?
  • Should I put on the whiny, depressed angst filled British album or the the whiny, depressed angst filled USian album?

As you can see, being a goth means never having to make a tough decision. Think about it, when was the last time you heard a goth complaining about their ulcers?

Are you adequate?
Are you adequate?

I am the king of google searches (5.00 / 2) (#35)
by jsm on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 04:12:04 AM PST
Think about it, when was the last time you heard a goth complaining about their ulcers?

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Still no luck with chimpanzees' arses, however.

... the worst tempered and least consistent of the editors
... now also Legal department and general counsel,

I am also apparently unaware that diaries update (5.00 / 2) (#36)
by jsm on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 04:13:46 AM PST
correct link, from the cache

Sorry about that.

... the worst tempered and least consistent of the editors
... now also Legal department and general counsel,

Chimpanzees' arses (none / 0) (#123)
by gotblack on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 09:01:17 AM PST
Allow me:
Chimpanzee Arses

thanks, but we were looking for a picture (5.00 / 1) (#159)
by jsm on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 09:09:55 AM PST
It was for an article on sexual harrassment we published a week ago -- the author (dmg) wanted to illustrate a point about evolutionary theory or what have you by linking to a picture of a chimpanzee's swollen arse. We couldn't find one, despite an inordinate amount of trouble, and had to make do with a mandrill's. Since then, it's become a sort of obsession; pictures of chimpanzees' swollen arses are exactly the sort of thing you would expect there were millions of on the Internet, and I still thinking we're just not looking hard enough.

I may write a story about this quest.

... the worst tempered and least consistent of the editors
... now also Legal department and general counsel,

While I think of it (3.80 / 5) (#23)
by SpaceGhoti on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 05:02:57 PM PST
Please leave Columbine out of it. The school and parents still haven't figured out why it happened, and they never will. Those kids weren't Goths, they were bullied and deranged. Even the Goth community shunned them. Eventually they decided to return every insult, real or imagined, back on the world that ignored them.

Not to mention, the people who knew them personally still grieve for them. Not for what they did, but for the boys themselves.

A troll's true colors.

yeah... goth is evil... RIGHT.......... (5.00 / 2) (#24)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 05:17:31 PM PST
I laugh at these attempts by religious groups attempting to blame the sins of the world on others, instead of admitting to their own faults. You amuse me and continue to do so, probably for the rest of my life. QUIT being so friggin' ignorant!

goth (3.00 / 2) (#28)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 16th, 2001 at 10:07:25 PM PST
~LOL~ damn man you on crack?? i cant stop laughing after i read this you MUST be high

hmm. (5.00 / 1) (#29)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 02:02:49 AM PST
*looks at herself* well ill be damned. apparently im an evil spawn of satan and im going to burn in hell because i have piercings, and wear lots of black. hmm.
someone should really prevent massive christian inbreeding. i think its really gone and mutated their brain cells.
but, back to my point. if you look at school shootings, not a friggin' ONE of those people were goth. and just because SOME goth people believe in vampirism, does not mean everyone does. everyone is an individual (except you brain washed christian inbreeders, apparently you all must be the same) and everyone has their own talent and their own way of doing things. please stop mating with your cousins. it stops being okay after awhile. PLEASE, for the sake of originality in humans!

*Jumps In with Both Feet Flaming* (none / 0) (#152)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 02:00:33 AM PST
Ok, first of all, I am a 26 year old mother of two. I have an 8 year old son and a year and half old daughter. I am the office manager for a state university. I have a garden I love puttering around in. I have two dogs, a cat, and a wonderful husband. I am a member of MENSA in good standing. I am working on my Masters in Education. I want to be a high school teacher. I have 8 tattoos and 5 piercings. I cradle my daughter every night, and hug my son when he goes to bed. I worry about my neighborhood, and I enjoy the sound of the bells from the German Catholic Church at the end of the street. By birth I am a Jew, and by choice I am a pagan.

I am also a goth.

I work with kids. I may work with *your* kids. Right now I work with college age kids, but I also deal with programs that work with elementary school kids. Next year I will be dealing with high school kids. Your high school kids. You will meet me during teacher parent conferences, and you will have no idea that on the way home I listen to the Cure and that on weekends I go out to the club and dance to Sisters of Mercy. You will not be able to pick me out of a line up as being a goth. You will never know unless I choose to let you know. And I will be teahing your children not to be hate-filled bigots like you. Hopefully it will stick. It is obviously too late to teach you any sense.

As a last note, those kids at Columbine planned it all as a tribute to Hitler. They did it on his birthday. They were not goths. They were not SHARPS. They were neo nazi punks that went crazy and hurt a lot of people. They even said themselves they weren't goths. So there!

CORPORATE GOTHS (none / 0) (#182)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 23rd, 2001 at 03:35:56 AM PST
woohoo for corp goths...its true, you can't always read a book by its cover (as they say) and corp goths are proof of that. *smirk*

Goths and misunderstanding (5.00 / 1) (#30)
by Graham on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 02:10:17 AM PST
First off, I would like to point out that Im 30 and have a child of my own. Second, I myself have been a Goth and would still consider myself an active participant. With that out of the way I will begin. Where do some people get off with blaming anything that goes wrong on fringe groups, who usually dont have the voice, or the age, to be able to defend themselves, without somebody saying its only a young one, their voices mean nothing to us. The message that gets put across by the do gooders seems to be "That which we do not understand, must be destroyed". If I remember right, isnt that what the romans did to Jesus. Thats made the Christian faith the most powerful organisation in the world. So if you want Goths to become that powerful, then keep going the way your going. Otherwise lay off with the baseless accusations. Goths dont hurt people, people hurt people. It doesnt matter what walk of life you come from, how you dress, what you do for a living, everybody is capable of hurting everybody. Look within each and every one of you and you will see this is true. If you still think that Goths are to blame, youve probably got some guilty secret that you want blamed on somebody else. Graham

Dont be so quick to point (5.00 / 1) (#31)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 03:16:33 AM PST
Okay this is beyond ridiculous. This is not just blatant ignorance, this is even worse. I suppose, because black is evil, you must believe that black cats are evil. Black cars, then, must be evil. Rocks, minerals, things created by God(!), are evil. The last time a group of people were judged for their beliefs, they were massacred by Hitler. How about slavery- blacks were used as such and were treated less than equal because of their skin color, their appearance. While Im at it, lets go ahead and consider those that are disabled or have a disease like cancer, lets call them evil, for they cant walk upright like us 'angelic' creatures. What is written in this article is distasteful and I am ashamed that this person considers themselves Christain. I strongly advise that they do some research before talking about that which they know nothing of. This article is filled with racism, the writer, prejudiced. Many people fail to realise that the war against Satan and his demons is a spiritual one, not a physical one. Of course, one might suggest to the writer of this article, that it is a sin to condemn others. Think hard on what you perceive as evil- for your actions will decide where you will end when the time comes. Only God passes judgement, why do you take it amongst yourself to act on his behalf? Think you God smiles down upon those who would stand and point fingers and cast stones? Jesus himself stepped in front of a woman who was being stoned to death, and he sheltered her from imminent death. Are you, sir(or madame), going to be the first to cast the stone?

don't be ridiculous (3.66 / 3) (#34)
by jsm on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 04:01:50 AM PST
The last time a group of people were judged for their beliefs, they were massacred by Hitler

That's simply not true; we ourselves judged a group of people for their beliefs last week, in dmg's article "Wicca: A Scientific Solution", where we advocated separating genuine WIccans from mere Goths by the use of a ducking stool. Since then, there have been no massacres whatever. I think we have proved that we can be trusted in this matter.

... the worst tempered and least consistent of the editors
... now also Legal department and general counsel,

Godwin's law invoked - YOU LOSE. (5.00 / 1) (#62)
by dmg on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 04:30:04 PM PST
Although this site normally does not support the use of Godwin's law, since we believe that some acts are inherantly similar to those of the Nazis, in this case, Godwin's law can be safely invoked. You lose. End of discussion.

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

a slight retraction :) (4.00 / 1) (#32)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 03:39:47 AM PST
okay, okay, i have a slight retraction to my comment about christian inbreeding. i was half asleep and slightly annoyed by people pinning horrid stuff on goth people. (and im still half asleep...)
not ALL christians are bad, as proved by a couple who did posts against this article. its just these close minded buttmonkeys who wont open their eyes and see the world for what it is. i mean...that comment about how everyone should be a jock REALLY got to me. thats stereotyping and stuffing people into groups, yet again. like stuffing all the school shooters into the goth group, its the same thing! youre retracting your own statements using your stupidity.
but...somehow i always lose my point
i have nothing against the christian religion, hell i dont have anything against any religion. but with the way some people makes me want to cry sometimes because people can be so close minded and prejudiced.
and blah blah blah, its human nature, i know, but this is against people you dont even know! i think its okay to hate someone as long as you have a good reason to hate them.
why do you people who made this article thing, hate goths? because you think we brainwash people into drinking blood? because you think we're out to get followers for satan? no, because then, our group would be called 'vampires' or 'satanists' sorry for my half crazy rantings, but i believe i made slight sense. lost my point again though.

hah (1.00 / 1) (#33)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 03:54:19 AM PST
i just realized something...
it would be absolutely hilarious if a goth wrote a joke or something. abso-friggin'-lutely hilarious
thats just my thoughts on the matter :)

IT IS A DAMN JOKE! (1.00 / 1) (#65)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 08:05:39 PM PST
The whole site is full of such whacked out ideas that this HAS to be a joke. Noone can be this fucked in the head!


LOL (1.00 / 1) (#85)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 02:26:21 PM PST
You haven't met my sister then.

joke (1.00 / 1) (#95)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 09:22:44 PM PST
yeah, am i the only person who took that post as tounge in cheek, i think its pretty obvious the guy who wrote it wasnt being serious

Humor (1.00 / 1) (#137)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 02:40:00 PM PST
if the point of hte post is humor, then the subsequent posts are also made in the point of humor. This board is interesting to read, quite funny, but how much hilairty would be lost if no one replied?

a joke (none / 0) (#126)
by gotblack on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 09:31:11 AM PST
Seems to be a joke. The whole site seems to be founded on the idea that when you rile people up, emotions fly and URLs are passed to mailing lists. The result is a hell of a lot of traffic. It was pretty dry humour, but the part that bugged me is the people defending it as if they believed it or learned something from it. A dangerous line is walked when you present a joke in this manner. The world contains a LOT of really stupid people who will believe anything they read and will then empower themselves to treat innocent people differently because of it.

Try to be more thoughtful of the broad results of your articles, author. Maybe a bit less dry next time.

Are you blind? (3.00 / 2) (#37)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 05:19:34 AM PST
I can't believe what I'm reading! You completely stereotyped a large number of people! For one thing, I am goth and guess what? I'm in girl scouts! I'm president of my troop because of my amazing leadership capabilites. Guess what else? I have a 4.0 average in school. I'm in French Club and I volunteer my time to aiding most of the time. You haven't the clue what you are talking about by saying "All goths wear black!" I like colors! Gothism is a philosophy, not a dress code. Open up your minoptic little brains and take a long hard look around!

easy for you to say (4.33 / 3) (#38)
by jsm on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 06:18:20 AM PST
after all, on the Internet, nobody knows you're a Goth. I'm afraid I flat out don't believe you.

... the worst tempered and least consistent of the editors
... now also Legal department and general counsel,

why not? (1.00 / 1) (#169)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 07:37:25 AM PST
is it too hard for you to actually hear some form of truth? other than the brain rot that you have been digesting for all these years?

Question (none / 0) (#39)
by spam o tron mk1 on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 08:02:16 AM PST
Gothism is a philosophy, not a dress code.

Shouldn't a philosophy have just a little more meat to it than liking vampires and wearing black?

You're right, it should! (none / 0) (#42)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 09:31:56 AM PST
It's a shame you can't see past it.

Gothism is a philosophy, not a dress code (none / 0) (#67)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 09:25:26 PM PST
Shouldn't a philosophy have just a little more meat to it than liking vampires and wearing black?

you are of course assuming that all goths like vampires. personally i dont. i find that the people that do honestly belive that they must drink blood to survive and sleep in coffins is to me a bit strange. now am i going to start a revolution to expel all those people into a single place and drive a very large silver stake though them. NO!!!!! if you judge other people by their dress or even by what you have heard, for one that is called Gossip and is a sin in the bible, and second you will be given a day of judgement and on that day you will stand before whatever greater power you believe in and explain to that being why you are better than them because you past judgement on your fellow man. when i have my day of judgement i can say that i lived my life and stayed true to myself, and yes i did sin but i have repented that sin and ask for forgivness from that being. all in all, you are not God and have no right to pass judgement. By the way Stereotypes=Gossip=sin

...right. (none / 0) (#207)
by Mercy on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 08:56:22 AM PST
While I don't know that I'd classify "goth" as a philosophy, there *is* more to the gothic subculture than liking vampires and wearing black.

philosophy? (none / 0) (#47)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 12:06:34 PM PST
No it's not - it's a subculture, composed of a general worldview expressed in such art-forms as fashion, music, and writing. To be a philosophy as such it would need to be formalised, and as anyone who has read a "What is Goth?" thread on alt.gothic will know, no-one has ever succeeded in satisfactorily doing so. Even as a subculture, since its roots in the late '70's it has been changing almost constantly. The "Vampyre" thing is a tiny minority thing practised by less than 1% of goths, and generally laughed at and ridiculed by the other 99%. There are Christian Goths, Buddhist Goths, Jewish Goths, Atheist Goths - the list goes on. Since it's not a religion or a philosophy it doesn't conflict with any belief system. If anything what does characterise goth, IMHO, is a consciousness of the ephemeral nature of life, that change, including death and decay are inevitable parts of life. Handled correctly, this expresses itself as a more focussed way of appreciating one's life, somewhat akin to Zen, or the way of the early Christian Desert monks. Again, though, that's just my take on it, and doesn't stand up as any kind of formalised philosophy, more just a feeling or a way of looking at things.

Goth Article (4.00 / 1) (#40)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 08:07:09 AM PST

Hilarious article. Liked it! A lot!
Off to sack Rome, drink virgins blood and deny Christ (busy types us Goths dontchakno?). :-)

This HAS to be a joke! LOL (5.00 / 1) (#41)
by Lyllia on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 09:20:46 AM PST
At least I HOPE it is. If it is not, consider yourself eBuked, my friend! Your message birthed from fear and hatred is a blazing example of a false Gospel. God is a God of Love, Chief. I suggest you lose interest in the things of the flesh and start judging folks by the content of their character rather than outward appearances. God hates the hypocrite, you know. Be mindful or yourself.

Yes, God is Love (3.00 / 2) (#43)
by Adam Rightmann on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 10:13:34 AM PST
but He does hate the sin. This Goth stuff is a trend that has apparently bypassed my little city (or perhaps they're around late at night when I'm inside sleeping, comforting our newborn, or studying the Scriptures), but from the unbiased reporting I've read, it does seem dangerous and even heretical (it's Sacrament when you eat Jesus' body and blood, blasphemy when you drink someone elses).

In any case, it sounds dangerous, and it makes me long for the good old days when the only people wearing black were the priests and nuns.

A. Rightmann

Gah! (4.00 / 2) (#44)
by SpaceGhoti on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 10:28:19 AM PST
(it's Sacrament when you eat Jesus' body and blood, blasphemy when you drink someone elses)

When you stop to think about this for a second, does this strike anyone as being even slightly absurd? Aside from the fact that Transubstantiation is a ritual almost directly stolen from sun worship, the logic of the above statement completely falls apart when considered in context.

Not that religion ever needs (or encourages) logic to support itself, but some consistency is in order.

...unbiased reporting...

Reporting of what? Vampirism? If you think being Goth and worshiping vampires (or thinking you are one) are invariably linked, you need to find new sources. Most Goths I know find the notion of vampirism to be romantic and morbid, therefore cool to ponder. None of them actually think they're vampires. If you've been listening to reports of role-players pretending to be vampires for their games, that's something else entirely.

Wake up and smell the coffee. The world is not black and white, even for Goths.

A troll's true colors.

vampires roleplayers..... (none / 0) (#173)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 03:10:02 PM PST
And what of those that actually do drink the blood of humans and have the gift to utilize the energy......?

Anyone who freely admits it, is told to be a liar or a nut. Can they not have similar interests (RPing,etc.) and if they are known to RP then someone finds out they do actually feed....they are told to be a liar. *shakes head*

Alot of things in this world sicken me.....and people (in general) are one of them. Most everyone (some goths included) are so wrapped up in their look that they forget TO look. There is so much goin on around us, and there is so much that is awesomely deep but people are to caught up to care. And then there are others that take advantage of an idea ("trendies")and those to closeminded to see.

Then of course you have the trendy goths and the lifestylers. .... What is more disgusting and embarrassing <spelling?>and degrading than knowing what something is....and what it is about by living the life. Then seeing someone degrading and cheapening it's name and meaning by thinking it is something else and portraying that to the world for all to see and believe that is what we are all about.

I posted before that I wish this whole article to be a sarcastic joke.... because there simply is to much hate, misunderstanding and misinformation about/for Goths and Real "Vampires" (for lack of a better word) and SOO many other subcultured groups.

now onto the subject of Christian Goths..... There are alot better oxymorons than that. One of which best describes me.... ChristianPagan... That is my religion because I believe in God and I believe that Jesus died for our sins and stuff in the bible. But I also believe (and noone can convince me otherwise, though opinions and views are always welcomed to help further open my eyes/mind) that the Pagan Gods and Goddesses are quite possibly Guardians of ____(place element, object, etc. here). So....why now is it impossible for one who is mostly passive and feels that intelligent conversation and trying to work things out is better than fighting, one who is blessed enough to have their eyes opened to everything around them and to be able to write/create art/music about it and both the wonderful and sensual and terrible things in life,one who tries not to judge and prefers to stick mostly to themselves (most of the time for lack of better company),one that has an overall respect for all things in life AND death,one blessed(though I know sometimes it feels as a curse)with EMPATHY, COMPASSION, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE (something, if I remember correctly,the bible says we should ALL have for each other), be a Christian. Is it really so hard to believe they could be Christian? Are those not some of the standards we are asked to embrace???? I'll tell you, personally, since I have started letting go of ALL my closeminded ideas,showing a general respect for my fellow person (as much as I dislike them at times), my spiritual life is alot cleaner and my relationship with God and my Guardians are alot better.... and yes.... I bloodlet...but I see that not as a sin because I don't do it from anger, I'm NEVER careless, and I ALWAYS have permission. Most of conscience is clear about it. last of my post... If one decides to post an "Informative" message (such as the original) Research.... and you know, nothing helps writing an article better than Personal Experience.

~*~Forgive me for the novel, but I had alot to get off my chest. I hope in some way this helps to open someone's eyes or heart.~*~
In love and light and blood ;)

P.S. Do you realize how hard it is for one to find a trusted donor??? One that will go and get tested with you and keep getting tested???? One that you know will always be truthful... It's alot harder than alot of people realize. Think About It.

The Cult of Gothicus (5.00 / 1) (#46)
by Andrij on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 11:46:04 AM PST
We are indeed very dangerous.

We are not unlike the Masons.

We control your pitiful country. And have for centuries.

I will use my power on you this instant.

I am controlling you.

You will buy a Thesaurus.

Thank you (none / 0) (#89)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 04:39:36 PM PST
I thank you so much for compelling me to buy a thesaurus. It inspired many more words in which to describe this absurd article.

i love you (none / 0) (#162)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 01:33:28 PM PST
marry me!

Re: Sin (none / 0) (#53)
by Lyllia on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 01:58:45 PM PST
Where does it say in scripture that God disaproves of people in black clothing? As you sit peacfully in your home cradling your infant in your arms, if you were to look out the window to see someone aproach your doorstep would you assume they were there to: A. steal your child and drink your blood? B. steal your VCR? C. find directions because they were lost? D. peddle Jehovah's Witness material? E. present you with a check from Publishers Clearinghouse? What if they were all dressed in black? A black man? A guy in a clown suit? Someone in old clothes? Someone in a cowboy hat? A military uniform? Any person can be dangerous - or maybe not. To reject someone because of the way they are dressed clearly crosses the line and IS sinful. (James 2:1) The entire notion of Goth = blood drinking devil worship is untrue. True some blood drinkers choose this form of dress, but most don't. They work in your office building, look just like you and cradle their children same as you do. Don't assume that because someone is dressed in black that they are a bad person. That is a mistake.

Oh please (none / 0) (#132)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 12:36:12 PM PST
Speaking from ignorance always makes one look the fool.

He who does not question his beliefs and see the world around him for what it truly is, is but a sheep in the unknowing flock.

Your Article (none / 0) (#45)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 11:18:45 AM PST
What can I say. You are sick & sad. Who gave you the right to judge anyone? Your article was so full of holes that I could drive a MACK truck through it. Your links seemed to point to random.goth sites without having any relationship to the highlighted text. Except for the one about Goths shooting people. That pointed to a link that disproved your own theroy or the ones on Vampirism....I'll give you that. That is scary....but saying that not all Goths are fact I would say that outside the US there are little or none. I am an ex-Goth, my SO is a week-end Goth and a lot of my freinds are Goths. Man, did you ever get it wrong. Try hanging with Goths for a while before you write an article like this. It is people like you that drove me AWAY from the Christian Church......Patrick.

If this isn't a joke (none / 0) (#48)
by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 12:28:35 PM PST
If this isn't a joke, the author is pathetically ignorent. I was a "goth" through most of high school (and I still love the music and some aspects of the subculture) and I didn't know a single goth who drank blood, lured virgins, or were violent. None of the people that I considered genuenly goth (because there are a lot of silly kids who CALL themselves goth) worshiped satan. In fact, I knew a few Christian goths. And I can't beleive the junk written about stamping out goths in schools. No black clothing? You think goths only wear black? It's the most common color, but you're wrong to think it's so essential to our subculture that the lack of it would stamp it out. Take a blood count for kids suspected to be goth? That would have done no good for me or any of my goth friends considering we never donated (or drank) blood to these people you call "vampires." And I can't believe that you would suggest encouraging all kids to be like the "jocks." In my high school, the jokes were REALLY VIOLENT and often did more drugs than the kids you consider to be the bad one. The more I think about this, the more I think it MUST be a joke. If it isn't, the author lives an oppressive and hate-filled life.

Poor BC! (4.00 / 4) (#49)
by opalhawk on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 12:54:12 PM PST
I know what it is! Our Dear BC is just feeling left out, feeling like if one is 'christian' one cannot be 'goth'... well dearie fear not, here is a veritable cornucopia of links for you! I wonder what all of theese godfearing people would think of your grouping all 'goths' into a catagory of bloodsucking heathens....


  • Christian
  • The Enclave
  • Sanctuary - Christian Goth Ministry
  • Gothic For Christ
  • Treasures of Darkness
  • The Shadowlands
  • The Bloody Gospel
  • The Last Outpost Before the Apocalypse
  • A Night In The Garden Project
  • Godarchist's Underground for Misfits
  • Goths Against Hate Campaign
  • Club Insomnia
  • The Refuge
  • Gothtown

  • Webrings

    Poetry, Prose, Art

    Personal Homepages
  • Wynter's page
  • Splee's Sanctuary
  • Sanctuary International
  • (Soul Embraced)
  • Abused by the Church
  • Treasures of Darkness
  • Sanctuary Places
  • Gothic for Christ
  • Spikey4him
  • The Shadowlands
  • Ambassador 4JC's Christian music page
  • Goth Chylde...
  • The Outpost
  • Gothic page
  • Under the Sleeping Moon
  • Blood Fortress
  • The Eternal Chapter
  • The Bloody Gospel
  • The Text of Palaeogothica
  • Problems only Christian Goths have
  • Vampire's in Tulsa, Oklahoma: Saved Through Blood
  • Soul Entity
  • Gothic Page
  • Adamnation
  • Brian's Page
  • The Ruin
  • Elias Emmanuel
  • Mesmerized
  • Ladyhawke's Nest
  • The Faerie Loricha's
  • Cthniel
  • Sanctuary
  • Gollgotha the Place of the Skull
  • Enclave
  • Xnetgoth
  • ThaddiusX
  • Eva O Info
  • Sonata
  • Clan Lost Souls

    And the list goes on, but I think you get my point....

    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

  • Thank You (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by bc on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 03:32:56 PM PST
    Thank you for an informative and interesting response Opalhawk. I shall investigate some of these links to see what the Christian Goth world is like.

    However, I can't help but wonder if the term 'Christian Goth' is something of an oxymoron. Where is is used, one of the terms must surely be misapplied?

    After all, were not the Goths a pagan tribe who laid waste much of the ancient world, including the Holy City of Rome? And modern Goths take their name and much else from their ancient forebears.

    Perhaps they are not anti-Christian, but surely they cannot be Christians and Goths? Some of the groups you linked to looked like normal Christians, who have just latched onto the Goth name for a frisson of danger. Others appeared to be bona fide Goths beginning to claw their way back to Christianity.

    However, I just don;t see hw one can be both a Goth and a Christian. Isn;t there some huge internal contradiction here?

    Again, I am in your debt for the links. Thanks.

    ♥, bc.

    This is utter ignorance (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 08:39:10 PM PST
    I can't believe some of the stereotypes I'm seeings. Maybe if you actually researched the topic and talked to the people you would realize most of us are very nice people. To disprove your learning stereotype I give you this, I have a perfect 4.0 and am a member of the math team and WYSE( worldwide youth in science and engineering). I won first in my division at state for geometry in Illinois just this year. I love learning and doing math. My wadrobe does not consist of wearing black. The only thing goth is is a way of thinking. We tend to like darker and more morbid art forms. Also, if you actually examined the crime among subcultures you would realize goths have the lowest crime rate. CoIumbine was not goths, columbine was a group of kids NEGLECTED by parents that didn't care. Music or video games has nothing to do with it unless that individual is seriously disturbed which means they would probably do it anyway. I have NEVER done anything to harm another individual and will never. I also believe in engaging in intercourse only if you love the person. If you or concerned parents have any questions please email me at I will be glad to answer all questions honestly. The only reason goths are portrayed so bad is because all the people that do wrong are considered goth.

    You virus that attempts to consume with propaganda (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 09:40:38 PM PST
    Were the romans not christians who laid waste to nearly all of the ancient world? who spread themselves whereever they pleased with the ease of military force only to place christianity upon other without choice? and you speak of peer-pressure from "goths".

    im also sorry you took it upon yourself to forge an interview with a goth. for if you had spoken to one true goth you would have the epitome of good in the world. we learn we love we live. while you obviously did no research good sir. as of your comment about "Christian women know their place" thats obviously why youre posting from you treat women like objects while i,a goth, treat them as goddesses.

    We goths are in no way related to the former goths but apparently you got both cultures as well as the supposedly oppressed romans wrong in full.

    sir as you must be, as no woman would say she must be in the kitchen, you obviously have been programmed by the thoughts of others just like the other practioners of your faith that fall far short of what the bible teaches. i know true christians and i know true goths and everything you stated was not from a true christian nor was it about true goths. so if the government took away christian music, banned white clothes and closed churches would you stop being a[(n) (alleged)] christian?

    we are what we are and that is a being that has evolved past your medieval views thinking that if you dont understand something it should be destroyed as taught by the actions of the churches long ago, such as with galileo's theories, he was placed on house-arrest if you will just because his idea was concurrent with another before him, who didst recant. so who now is the brainwasher? is the one who oppresses? is the one who destroys? who are you?

    Just A Tidbit of Factiod... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 01:07:43 AM PST
    The firstwave modern Goth aesthetic was heavily based on Christian architecture and imagery among other things. Firstwavers loved the dichotomy represented in the Old Church, the pageantry and seriousness mixed in Catholicism and the aspirations and yearning expressed in Gothic period buildings. Goth and Christian fit quite well together on a more philosophical and spiritual level as well. There is a deepseated need for love and understanding at the core of the Goth psychology and an even deeper need to believe in something greater than themselves that can flower quite beautifully when given the water and sunshine of an affirmative and loving religion like Christianity at its best. Just a little factoid to feed your thought. Suzi

    Correction... (none / 0) (#144)
    by Nathaniel Fox on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 05:34:08 PM PST
    Modern Goths do not take their name from the historical culture. The name was first coined by Ian Astbury, one of the genre's earlier founders, in a magazine article wherein he was asked to describe his sound. He endeavored to liken it to Gothic architecture, a building style popular during the Medieval period. His comparison had to do with the rather orante and brooding nature of this architectural form, and absolutely nothing to do with the Visigoths or Ostrogoths.

    I suggest, bc, that you research your material a little more thoroughly before you post a rant like this. You've drawn many incorrect conclusions, regarding a whole range of issues. The errors and outright misrepresentations in which you've engage only serve to make you appear grievously ignorant of your subject matter.

    Favorite quote (5.00 / 1) (#145)
    by SpaceGhoti on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 06:21:04 PM PST
    Your post reminds me of one of my favorite quotes: If you were truly a Goth, you would have been there when they sacked Rome!

    A troll's true colors.

    The Gothic community (none / 0) (#151)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 01:16:00 AM PST
    Your article on the Goth community was deeply disturbing to me. You implied that you were a follower of Jesus, and yet you act nothing like him. Your article was filled with judgement, condemnation and hate.

    Jesus said: "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

    You said: "One would almost feel sorry for them . . . were it not for them deserving condemnation for their wicked lustfulness."

    You stated "Let there be a mighty awakening across America, and a damnation of all heathens and unbelievers, such as Goths." How do you reconcile this statement with the fact that Jesus forgave the thief that was dying on the cross next to him? He forgave the woman who had committed adultery, telling her merely "Go, and sin no more". Did Jesus take on the sins of the world when he was dying on the cross, or did he just take on your sins? Why do you speak as though you are better and more deserving of grace than the Goths?

    If black is the color of evil, why is it the color most commonly worn by the Amish, the priesthood, and Mother Theresa?

    You accused the Gothic community of lacking knowledge about the power and pleasure of love, and yet you are the one who truly lacks that knowledge. Judge not lest ye be judged.


    goths (none / 0) (#155)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 03:51:32 AM PST
    your basically saying that goths are unintelegent all the goths i know work in offices and are computer geeks. Why try and cause some kind of hate against goths, thats exactly what the nazis did and look what happened there

    Oi... (none / 0) (#160)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 12:46:09 PM PST
    There were some Goth tribes that believed in God, and that Jesus was the -adopted- son of God, just so you know.

    And yes, I am Christian, I am Goth. Oh, scary little me. Goth is not a religious movement, and I hope with all my heart it never WILL be, as that is just conformity at its worst (gotta admit, the Goth culture is not very welcoming at the moment, and pushing people like this to believe awful stereotypes. Bah.)

    And I fail to see how there's a conflict. Goth is, put very bluntly at the limitations of my own words, an appreciation for the dark, mysterious things in life, and the contrast between light and dark (IE, without sadness there would be no happiness and vice versa, without darkness we would not know light and vice versa, etc etc). But does that mean it is always evil? Let's say.. Interest in death (something totally stereotypical, and often depressing (Oh, I don't like to be depressed? GASP! STEREOTYPE BLASPHEMER!)). Is that evil to you? Simply recognizing that we are all mortal and shall someday meet our end? Or, let's say, we study religion (I do, anyway. When I have enough time). Does that mean we automatically practice it? No. I've researched a few myths and religions, but I'm still Christian, aren't I? Does learning about something make you automatically part of it?

    And where did you EVER get the idea we're all Satanists? Psh, most gothy people I know don't even BELIEVE in satan, so why would they worship it? And the black thing.. Oh dear. If the only "Goth" defining thing is black (which it is to many people I know), then whenever we took our clothes off we'd be non-goths wouldn't we? I like colored clothes (*gasp*), be they dark or super pale. But that's me. And if you DO ever see a "goth" person that only wears black 100% of the time, they are either A. horribly unoriginal, or B. trying to make a nice little image for themselves.

    There are people like you said, but you know what they are? We have words for them, "Posers". Say it with me, P-O-S-E-R-S. And most of them don't even take it to that extent. Stop focusing on the extremes and do some actual research, my dear Bible Bigot. It's the people like you that give Christians a reputation as narrowminded preachers that are out to convert everybody.

    Oops. (none / 0) (#161)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 01:17:16 PM PST
    Oh dear. I just reread that. I dearly hope this is a joke. I suspected it was real until it said something about looking up to jocks. Damn. I feel stupid now. *Gullible* Oh well. Reading it for the second time makes for an interesting laugh, anyway. *Runs away to her corner of utter embarrassment*

    christian gothism (none / 0) (#188)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 24th, 2001 at 02:30:14 AM PST
    How can anyone believe in god but not satan? Thats a perfect example of brainwashed sheeplike behaviour :)

    not that i believe in either...

    Best to get your information straight (none / 0) (#164)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 05:18:45 PM PST
    Dear bc

    Your essay was a very amusing read, as were the subsequent comments. Unfortunately your information is startlingly inaccurate.

    There is no link between modern Goths (a post-punk music subculture) and the Gothic tribes in late antiquity, and modern Goths make no reference back to them. The use of the word 'Gothic' is related more particularly to the genre of Gothic literature developed largely in the 18th and 19th centuries.

    Additionally, you are quite wrong in representing the Goths of late antiquity as 'pagans' who 'laid waste' to the Roman empire. Most of the Gothic tribes were converted to Christianity fairly early on, and after the Gothic tribes conquered the Roman empire they adopted not only its customs, they also maintained its symbols, administrative structure and institutions.

    I've rarely read so much nonsense in my life, but at least it has been amusing nonsense. By the way, I've been a goth for 15 years, teach philosophy of religion, and specialise on Christian and 'pagan' thought in late antiquity. I've yet to encounter the nonsense you write about except in the delusional fantasies of fundamentalist Christians. Thanks for a good laugh though =)

    Paulo Goncalves
    Lecturer in Religious and Philosophical Studies
    University of Derby
    United Kingdom

    Please tell me .... (none / 0) (#172)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 02:03:08 PM PST
    please for the life of all that is good (and evil) tell me those huge posts on Goth and Vampirism was just sarcastic drabble, making fun of the people who really do think that way.....

    isn't there enough Goth and Vampire bashing in the world and on the net anyway......We don't bother you so don't bother us.

    bc (none / 0) (#177)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 11:38:24 PM PST
    I believe your first mistake here is in assuming that all levels of Goth culture are the same. I am not goth but I have come in contact with and been a part of many various subcultures and one of the things I've found out about many goths is that they think it's very funny when people like you take them so seriously. Most of them are not blood sucking devil worshipping vampires. In my opinion most of them are just out for the shock factor that the image provides. Doing things like restricting black clothing in schools will solve nothing seeing that most teens will find some way to rebel against their parents anyway. And that's all it is to most teens, a rebellion. And as we all know teenagers have been doing that forever. (Check out the 'Coffee Contata' by Bach.) The obvious solution is for parents to try and not lose contact with their children. As long as there is a healthy relationship at home what does it matter what a kid wears?
    Don't get me wrong, there are sick people within all levels of society but I think you are getting all worked up by assuming the worst about an entire culture when you are really condemning the activities of a small subculture within a subculture. The part that scares and disgusts you is not very large at all.
    The second mistake you are making is that Goths look back to Ancient times for their inspiration. The modern Goth subculture was originally formed by artists in the mid-1800's. It was a time right before the industrial revolution. Many artists and writers and poets of the time found it very avant-garde to delve into the macabre. They called themselves 'Gothic' in reference to the Gothic period right befor the Rennaisance. (In fact did you know that the Gothic Period actually brought on the Rennaisance thus ending the Dark Ages.) The Cathredrals (Notre Dame for instance) were built during this time and were designed to look very macabre, what with all the gargoyles and high vaulting arches and flying buttresses.
    Modern day Goths are just a revival of this popular trend from the last century that never really died out. It has absolutely nothing to do with ancient Rome. In fact I'd be willing to bet your average Goth on the street knows next to nothing about Ancient Germans and the ones that do could care less about something that happened two-thousand years ago. Like I said before, it's all about the image with most goths. (Just like it is with most cliques, including your jocks.)
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion, I just think you should take a good look at those you are condemning. You will probably find that underneith the exterior they are just like all the rest of us. The world is not all black and white and thank God for that.

    white manure on clean black sheets (none / 0) (#185)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 23rd, 2001 at 09:11:32 AM PST
    Basically, I think you have lost some direction there.. when i was reading your first post i wasnt sure if it was a joke or not, but apparently you seem quite serious.. i find that scary. I was raised in a strict religeon where basically all i breathed was the bible.. i now hate the bible.. you cant forcefeed people religeon.. if christians want to get together every sunday and sing happy songs about how great god is, then great.. so be it.. but if goths want to get together and have wild animalistic saddistic orgies whilst under the influence and drinking blood.. then so be it also.. there should be no double standard on freedom..

    This is what you don't get on other sites. (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by dmg on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 04:22:37 PM PST
    Loads of really informative links there. Thanks opalhawk.

    time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
    -- MC Hawking

    Alright Holy Roller (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 12:58:09 PM PST
    Here's a little comment from that book you put so much stock in..(ya know the BIBLE..ever heard of it???) "Judge not unless ye be judged.." So when you start walking on water, healing the sick, bringing sight to the blind...then come back and judge others ok??? Otherwise...why don't you actually attempt talking to these people..find out why they choose their lifestyle (which by the way is nothing like you described)....but wait...most of the "Goths" I know don't give the time of day to maybe you should just stay at home with Bible thumping Mommy.

    Bible thumping Mommy? (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by SpaceGhoti on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 01:06:32 PM PST
    Isn't using a Bible as a sexual instrument supposed to be blasphemy?

    A troll's true colors.

    Re: Bible Thumping Mommy (none / 0) (#52)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 01:20:13 PM PST
    Not in my book..I'm not Christian..but we won't get into that.

    sinners (none / 0) (#127)
    by gotblack on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 09:38:56 AM PST
    Looking for A whole bunch of sinners?

    re: Alright Holy Roller (none / 0) (#181)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 23rd, 2001 at 02:08:18 AM PST
    Great comment, best comment I've read so far

    Praise Jesus (3.66 / 3) (#54)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 02:18:45 PM PST
    There's nothing worse than seeing a bunch of wonderful children getting drawn into a sea of sin and misery. That's exactly what this "goth thing" is doing. Bands like Marilyn Manson, KMFDM, Martyr Complex, and the Spice Girls have done everything in their power to subvert the teachings of the Lord Jesus and it's up to us decent citizens to make sure that it the buck stops here with us. Stand up to your peers, children, and fight this evil scourge. Becoming a goth will do nothing but alienate you from the cheerleading squad, get you listening to really bad music (see the above), and it will lead to a life of carefree living, reckless sexual experimentation, wanton drug use, and a perpetual depression and disregard of self. Run into the light, Carol Ann. It's the only way you'll ever be safe...

    hahaha (none / 0) (#81)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 01:45:45 PM PST
    hahaha...the spice girls? goth? i dont think so. Its music. they said in their day that the Beatles were bad for the children, yet here is the very stupid, ignorant and prejudiced author of this article praising 'Yesterday'. hmm...contradictory?

    ROFLMAO @ The Spice Girls (none / 0) (#83)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 02:13:07 PM PST
    Stop right now, thank you very much! Who the f*** wants to be a cheerleader anyway???
    Sorry but I'm still killing myself laughing trying to picture Baby Spice as a goth..... it's simply not working.

    Baby Spice is not the problem... (none / 0) (#156)
    by hollowshell on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 05:15:50 AM PST
    Baby Spice just looks weird with that squashed up 'Jodie Foster' face of hers. The true evil one is known neo-nazi Mel C [C for Caucasian] follow this link for the dreadful truth:

    The Hollow Shell,
    Catford, London.

    Nice (none / 0) (#157)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 05:44:47 AM PST
    Who would have thought Posh Spice was trying to start a new master race?

    hee hee

    *rotfl* (none / 0) (#86)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 04:02:36 PM PST
    Apparantly this must be why goths reject teaching, we've been confused with cheerleaders. The majority of this anti-social behaviour (apart from the whole vampirism bit which seems to belong to the lunatic fringe anyway) seems to belong more to the Townies/Trendies who are the one's who go out and do the damage. I personally don't drink,smoke or take drugs (I hate taking head-ache tablets)

    This article was a fantastic work of fiction but I think I'll stick to Stephen King.

    WHAT??? (none / 0) (#88)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 04:33:51 PM PST
    The Spice Girls?? What are you on crank?? Sin is defined by the christian religion in this case...what is sin to you could be the norm for some. Please take your views and opinions and throw them at a wall, not this page.

    Cheerleading Squad????? (none / 0) (#91)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 05:10:57 PM PST
    "becoming goth will alienate you from the cheerleading squad" and just what does this have to do with anything? Most cheerleading squads I have ever known have consisted of girls and/or guys that are stuck up and very judgemental to every one, I knew a few who weren't but the majority are, and talk about drug use, most cheerleaders I knew used plenty of drugs and also underage drinking, they just hid that side of them behind their popularity, and in most cases, money. I am not saying all cheerleaders are like this, and in no way stereotyping cheerleaders, just bringing up the point that it doesn't matter who you are or what you do, drug use, so called evil music, etc., can be anywhere, your next door neighbor, your teacher, your church choir director, you just never know, and BTW, most goths I know don't abuse drugs or alcohol

    i thonk it takes more the being goth to alienate.. (none / 0) (#183)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 23rd, 2001 at 03:43:24 AM PST
    you from the cheerleading squad *shudders*
    there are several things that can...being fat, ugly, unpopular, geeky...and so on.
    i'm goth and too cool to hang out with stuck-up, wine cooler drinking, jock blowing cheerleaders...oh sorry, i'm stereotyping *slaps herself on the forehead*.

    Praise Scary Spice (none / 0) (#120)
    by gotblack on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 08:43:23 AM PST
    There's nothing worse than seeing a bunch of wonderful children getting drawn into a sea of sin and misery.

    There might be a couple things worse. For example, someone like yourself could be narrow minded, judgemental and uninformed in regards to people s/he has neither met, nor knows anything about. Truly sad.

    ...Martyr Complex, and the Spice Girls have done everything in their power to subvert the teachings of the Lord Jesus and it's up to us decent citizens to make sure that it the buck stops here with us.

    Yup... I fed the blood of a virgin to Scary Spice last night as we had sex with 54 demons at the altar. You have it all figured out. Now stop trying to subvert the teachings of Scary Spice.

    Becoming a goth will do nothing but alienate you from the cheerleading squad...

    Personally, I like the idea of people smiling and being all happy and all, but I can't stand cheering squads. Not cheerleaders as individuals, just the annoying squads when they cheer. Besides, my hairy legs would have looked BAD BAD BAD in one of those little skirts back in high school.

    Martyr Complex?? Right on!! (none / 0) (#122)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 08:55:40 AM PST
    I'd never even heard of Martyr Complex before you wrote this stuff so I had to check them out. All I can say is THANK YOU!! I've now found a band that exemplifies what I feel inside. These guys rock! I can understand why you hate them though- it's obvious in the lyrics of their song "Silent God" that Xianity isn't very high on their list of things to follow. Then again, maybe their song "Violator" is about you haha! I'd pay good money to see that happen to you.

    So thanks again. You've introduced me to a great new band and I hope they get lots of exposure from this, you moron. Maybe they'll dedicate their next CD to you...


    Praise Jesus - reply (none / 0) (#190)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 24th, 2001 at 03:11:43 PM PST
    I never knew that being a goth could be so much fun! Not only do you get wanton drug use, carefree lifestyle and reckless sexual experimentation, but you get to be alienated from the cheerleading squad! (not that I know any cheerleaders, but I will go and find some immediately). If I'd known this beforehand, I would've been a Goth a lot earlier! Thanks!!

    BTW - The Spice Girls were Goths? That is definitely one for the X-files.

    A final solution? (none / 0) (#57)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 03:08:31 PM PST
    I find the topic title most interesting in that the author uses the same phrase that the Nazi's used to usher in their program of "racial hygenics."

    It is also to be noted that he favors repressive tactics that have been used on other victimized groups, Scots and Jews.

    Anyone who believes in freedom, democracy, or any of the principles this country was built on should not be lulled by the supposed good intentions behind such tactics. It is a false face that hides the true motives of hate and genocide. Never again.

    - Anju

    ha! (none / 0) (#60)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 04:03:04 PM PST
    This is funny. They actually try to connect the modern romantic movement with the Goth barbarians from ages past. Anyone who has done their research would know this is horribly inaccurate. Further, while I don't profess to an alarming amount of personal gothiness, I have been around the "scene" for years, and this essay doesn't even beging to accurately describe anything I have ever seen. horrible. I would agree with stomping out the Sisters of Mercy, but replacing it with Paul McCartney isn't going to fly.

    If this Guy iS real... (none / 0) (#63)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 05:11:48 PM PST
    He is wearing a swastika on his arm as we speak. BTW Every painting or rendition of Christ I have ever seen has him with Long Hair. Checking the Bloodcounts of people would be woefully unamerican. The comments on 'Re-education' are extremly scary to me (Can you say Brainwashing, boys and Girls?). By opening the schools to religion you open them to all religions ie.. Buddist, Muslim, etc...

    Goths are NOT vampires (none / 0) (#64)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 07:48:15 PM PST
    im sorry, while i do not normally post to sites as to not anger the admins or even the people that write them. First allow me to start by saying thank you for sharing your ideas and viewpoints on this topic of the "gothic" community. i think that the internet is a great place for people of all ages, religions and races to come together and discuss their viewpoints without anyone else passing judgement on them. I was brought up in a christian home with 2 loving parents, my father was a senior member of our local church and was considered for the role of a elder. This man claimed that he loved God and would do anything for anyone. except his own son. one day when i was coming home from school i was beat-up by 6 boys outside my house, my father was at the window and did nothing to stop it. it took 2 other people down the street to get the boys to stop and leave me alone. i was in the hospital for 2 and 1/2 weeks, when i came out my father welcomed me home in front of everyone and when that door closed, the first thing that he said to me was "well next time ill make sure they dont stop" he would beat my mother almost daily, when i was about 10-11 he started on me. i took this from a man of God for 4 years until one day he tried to hit my little sister, i ended stopping him, he never touched her. but he beat me within an inch of my life with a hardcover bible. when i got out of the hospital my sister had bruses on her face and arms. when i was 16 i left my house with my sister and stayed with some friends of the church. it is these people that opened me to the so-called DARK culture. they taught me latin and about the beauty of art, they showed me the dark ages and the beauty that some of the greatest artists created. they put me though school and college. they allowed me to wear what i felt was me. which so happened to be black. i was a christian and a so-called goth. i believe in God and that one day Jesus Christ will decend upon earth and set everything right again. i believe that the bible is the word of God and that we must all follow that. i say to you, that you must not look upon what a person wears but instead look to who they are. i will agree that their is a select group of people that do worship Wicca and are truly dark people, most of those people believe in the concept of Vampires. which ARE NOT GOTHS. it is a seperate culture with different values. below you find a list of Morals that a person who wishes to me goth should follow. please respond as to what you think of them. becuase you are christian you are NOT perfect. there is ONE true perfect person and His name is Jesus Christ. I live my life in a tradition of Ancient Japanese Culture. death before Family Disgrace. just to finish off the story, my father died a year ago when he had an heart attack at church. my Sister is fine, she starts her first year of college this year, and that young family that took us in will have my greatest thanks and hold the highest place of honor in my heart a Code of Honor *Be true to yourself *Dont Lie *Do nothing in excess *if you must take from the earth. take only what is needed *Honor beyond all *Everyone is equal *protect your family *no one person is above anything thank you Christopher (Saint of Travelers)

    RE: Goths are not vampires (none / 0) (#115)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 07:26:45 AM PST
    I would just like to say that I was very moved by your post, and I am very sad to learn that your childhood was so traumatic.
    Having a faith has made you strong and I admire your ability to be true to it because you appear to understand it far better than many people that I have encountered on the internet who claim to be christian.
    I, for one, am a pagan (not a Wiccan, but pagan nonetheless) and try to respect all religions.
    I totally agree with you that people should not be judged by what they wear or look like, as by doing that, we are far from enlightened.
    But just a point I would like to add is that the Wiccan community (if they are true Wiccans) do not advocate vampirism any more than a goth does.
    Most true Wiccans do not disrespect the words of Jesus either.
    However I do see your point that there are misguided individuals who take on the "label" of a culture or religious community and completely misrepresent it or just wish to appear "dark" and scary as a shock tactic.
    To conclude, I did find your post very emotional and I hope that you and your sister are now safe. I wish you peace and safety.

    this is not funny anymore (1.60 / 5) (#69)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 17th, 2001 at 09:55:25 PM PST
    what gives YOU the right to say that we are unitelligent drug-addicts ... seeing as how you must have the iq of a peanut and going heavy on the coke, that's the only reason i can think of that someone would write an article like this. what the hell were your sources???!!!

    I Sincerely Hope That This Was A Tasteless Joke... (1.50 / 2) (#71)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 12:51:12 AM PST
    Who ARE you? What prompted you to write such tasteless, hatemongering swill? And for the love of Mike, what will it take to make you shut up?

    The last time I heard that kind of backwards thinking rhetoric, I was being unsuccessfully picked up on by a Nazi Skinhead. No follower of Christ ever had long hair? Are you a complete simpleton? CHRIST had long hair, as did his apostles and most of the non-Roman population of the Savior's time. And what is this anti-semitic, anti-Scotts bile you're spewing? Since when were THEY the enemy? For that matter, since when did GOTH become synonamous with anti-intellectual, uncultured Goat-kissers?

    Boy, before you set out to attack ANYONE, you should at the VERY LEAST make sure you do not exhibit any of the bad traits you seek to damn them for. And a word in your ear, child... it's 'CIVILIZATION' not 'CIVILISATION'. Pick up some remedial English classes before you start lobbing educational stones at people.

    And perhaps you might want to do a little research both into the culture you so rashly are attacking AND those cultures and shining examples of faith and purity you seek to uphold as well. It's quite easy to see that you were otherwise occupied when Sunday School was in session. I have a hard time lending credibility to the idea that you've done more than look at the pictures in the Children's Bible, much less done any soulsearching in one of the more advanced versions of the Good Book.

    Your solutions are evil. Dispicable and contemptible. Your points are trite and completely unfounded. And your poor plagery of Adolph Hitler's sick, demented calumny against the Jews turns my stomach. To think that there are ignorant, uneducated morons like yourself wandering this world is depressing. No true adherent to the Christian faith would forget so much of his Lord's teachings as to make such hateful, nefarious statements, much less with any conviction or seriousness.

    In short: You are a contemptible, twisted imbecile who abuses his first amendment rights with infantile venom against a culture he knows NOTHING about in the name of ideals he can not even aspire to understand or lay claim to.

    Get a life.


    perhaps so (5.00 / 1) (#73)
    by jsm on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 01:46:02 AM PST
    but at least he's not a Goth.

    ... the worst tempered and least consistent of the editors
    ... now also Legal department and general counsel,

    You are self-righteous without cause (3.33 / 3) (#78)
    by iat on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 08:00:36 AM PST
    Firstly, it is wrong for you to suggest that Christ had long hair. It has been scientifically proven that he had short hair. The long-haired image of Christ that was popularised by Renaissance art is completely contrary to all historical evidence of the appearance of Middle Eastern men of that era.

    Also, I think you should take remedial English classes, not the author of this article. "Civilisation" is the correct British English spelling of the word, while "civilization" is the American English spelling of the word. Your own spelling is quite abominable, with "despicable" spelt as "dispicable", "synonymous" spelt as "synonamous" and "Scots" spelt as "Scotts" for starters. Please make sure that your own house is in order before you start flaming someone's spelling. - love it or leave it.

    You're right! *chortle* (none / 0) (#84)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 02:19:01 PM PST
    Jesus had a Beatle haircut. There's scientific evidence that it was in fact, Paul, George, Ringo and Jesus. (John Lennon was his alias.)

    (j/k just in case anyone actually takes that seriously.)

    How arrogant (none / 0) (#106)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 04:16:06 AM PST
    I think it's exremely arrogant to think that humans can actually prove or disprove that Jesus had long hair. It's interesting to disguss perhaps but it isn't possible to prove anything either way (unless you've taken pictures a few thousand years ago).

    Besides, what's the point. I think I'm not worthy to judge The Hairstyle of the Son of God. What makes you think you are?


    Hairstyle (none / 0) (#110)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 05:50:01 AM PST
    Did they have scissors in those days?

    Stylin' (5.00 / 1) (#143)
    by SpaceGhoti on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 05:25:00 PM PST
    Whether or not they had scissors, they had sharp knives of all types used for grooming.

    A troll's true colors.

    The Righteous Goths of Civilization (4.00 / 2) (#74)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 04:46:24 AM PST
    Civilization, at least i know how to spell. There are 2 types of goth, that is what people don't understand. There are people who use it as a front to hate society, as an excuse to do the things that "mommy told them not to." These people want to seek out and destroy because they've felt shunned by the "normals". One some level we have all experianced bias, that's part of life, whether based on race, sex, sexuality, lifestyle, and even appearance. These goths take things to the extreme, they do it to shock and scare. They want to shove it in your face, they want you to notice them. I don't want to insult anyone with this metaphor but they're sort of like children. Think of a child who you have punished for something naughty they did, and in retaliation they color on the walls or hide your car keys or something. They act like you're not going to know it's them, but they really want you to notice. To fear, to fear that something may happen again.

    As for myself and others I know Goth is merely a name to place upon like minded people. To me Goth isn't a style or something to shove in people's faces it's who I am. I'm an open agnostic, I'm neither god fearing or satan loving. (Common misconception as well is that true satanists don't believe in satan). I feel I do my part as well as any other person on this earth. I work, I pay taxes, I take college classes. I did fine in highschool and I'm enrolled in college now on a scholorship to get a degree in Project Management. Sometimes I dress in all black, sometimes I don't. What it really is for me is that I feel enlightened, I don't close my mind to anyone's thoughts or opinions. I take everything at face value. I'm real. I know that life can get me down but I don't let it devour me. Real people, normal people, just hide these things, their doubts and inhibitions.

    In all actuality, goth resurfaced in the mid to late 80's. You know why? Music. It all started with music. To me goth is how I think and feel, how I know that there are others like myself to acknowledge their mortality and see things the way they really are. People who enjoy poetry and music, people who don't avoid things just because they're ugly.

    And as a reference to the ancient goths, whether barbaric or not. If that is the name I take after then let me be proud, they refused to be conquered by the Romans. They refused to be over come and changed to the roman liking. Isn't that what goth is really about. Preserving what we believe in. Anyway, there are a hundred different reasons why Rome fell. Part of the reason the Goths attacted Rome was because they were divided. There was an empire to the east and an empire to the west. Each ruled by different emperors. The emperor of the eastern empire happened to be weak of mind, or so history tells, and the reach of his kingdom had become to broad for him to command. This same time period was when Attila the Hun was around, the huns began part of the desention of Rome, the Goths merely attacked them a their weakest point. Anyway, enough of the history lesson.

    How could you not be christian and goth at the same time. You stereotype goth to the point as if we're merely some breed of pest you must exterminate. If goth is merely in the way you think, feel, and act. Then why is there no room for faith. I know a lot of christian goths. If we must go into comparisions here look at the way we've tried to "enlighten" the masses, other countries, with the christian faith, to change their heathen ways. I suppose that my only arguement with "god" is that "he" must have quite an ego for a perfect being if there is a right and a wrong way to believe. I would think that just to believe and have faith in something would count. To acknowledge your maker it whatever form he, she, it takes.

    "Whether you believe in God, or otherwise; at least have faith in something"

    Would you make all goths evil as you would make all jocks dumb and all cheerleaders blonde, ect. It's the same stereotypes that have plagued us for ages. Honestly, I just think that for once, people should open their eyes. Look at yourself, know yourself and judge your worthiness before you begin to judge anothers.

    "Judge not least thee be judged thyself."

    Words to live by.... something I have lived by. I try not to judge people as I would hope they do not judge me. Perhaps it is a foolish wish but it is a wish that I live foolishly by everyday. If my appearance affects the way you percieve my personality. Live by the things your mother taught you when you were young. I feel like own whole society is a mass of children pointing fingers, always looking for someone or something to blame. And if I am wrong and I meet god in the end, let him judge me, but also let me hope that "he" realizes that I have always acknowledged "a supreme power". In the end I think we are our own judges.

    "The mind can make a heaven of hell, or a hell of heaven."

    Hmm (4.75 / 4) (#77)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 06:48:30 AM PST
    Amusing. Perhaps if you are going to flame people for their spelling mistakes you had better make sure they aren't actually right. In proper, English English, it is spelled 'civilisation'.

    Personally I thought the article was interesting and made some good points about Goth culture. Why else would a group of people wear black and take up such an unusual lifestyle? I mean, any unusual lifestyle is deviant by definition, because it is different. And surely you don't disagree that deviant people are dangerous? Paedophiles and other criminals are deviant, so Goths are already sharing good company.

    Hope this helps! :)

    very petty (none / 0) (#112)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 06:35:08 AM PST
    Civilisation has the two spellings for England it is spelt Civilisation so that was the only correct point he made. However for the US I'm assuming it's spelt Civilization.

    I'm completely on your side here, but saying he should've taken remedial English classes just shows a poor lack of knowledge especially seing as US English is a bastardised form of English. They're the same but different. Like nearly all European languages are a bastardised form of Latin.

    But this just shows that based on an appearance how two people will go after each other down to something so petty. It's a shame we haven't become better than this by now. This is just mirrored by small minded and petty people passing judgement on an appearance. It's very pathetic and hurtful, like at school the people who pick on the child who doesn't have the latest trainers or T-Shirt true they may not have been able to afford it but were still picked on by the so called "ambassadors of taste" and now we have the "ambassadors of life style" people who want to tell us all how to live and act. Without these differences we would live in a sterile world. Diversity is what makes this world interesting, and if you just stopped to talk to a goth instead of pointing or laughing you'll find that most of the time you couldn't find a nicer person if we can look past your own closed mind and personal biggotry to look past the makeup.

    Also if goths are evil how come there are so many cases of Ppaedophilia involving church members, now anything to do with the abuse of children is pure unadulterated evil.

    Deviant Goths (5.00 / 1) (#124)
    by gotblack on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 09:17:03 AM PST
    Personally, I thought the article was a joke or a play to get traffic to the site (like most articles here). I haven't yet figured out which it is. It certainly made no good points about goths. It was misleading... uninformative at best.

    Your comment on the gothic lifestyle being "deviant by definition" is right on. By the true definition of the word deviant, to deviate is "to stray especially from a standard, principle, or topic". Goths definitely stray from a standard. But to say that "deviant people are dangerous" serves as an example of how ignorant people can take the word out of context and directly associate deviance with crime. It's obvious that you have done this in your post.

    Pedophiles and other criminals shop at your grocery store, too. Does this not, by your own convictions, make you a pedophile and a criminal?

    Seattle (none / 0) (#75)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 04:51:56 AM PST
    On another note, I believe that there is goth culture everywhere. And the man that wrote that article is terribly wrong. I don't think he's ever been to seattle because it's got a pretty deep gothic culture as well. Perhaps they're just the more artsy types so that doesn't count as his heathen low-lifes.

    Is this a joke? (none / 0) (#76)
    by Itsik on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 06:46:06 AM PST
    Please tell me you're joking. I myself find it funny that you are using the Roman empire's "encouter" with "Goth" as an example of how evil it is. Well my friend the religion that brought the Roman empire to its knees was....CHRISTIANITY. The religion that persecuted and killed more people than any other in the history of man kind (talk about evil)was.....CHRISTIANITY. Notice a certain pattern here? So before you point a finger at "Goth" stop and think. And then do so more research.

    goth (none / 0) (#79)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 01:33:45 PM PST
    i am a goth and i actually know many goths wh are christians. Religious teaching in schools would not help, it would just encourage others to rebel. This is pathetic, can't believe you are so incensed by a person different to yourselves. Just because i have never felt the need to go to church and worship a person whom no-one has ever proved even existed, does not mean that i am a terrible person. In fact, i worship myself and the faith i have in my friends. It's about time people such as yourselves started acceppting those different to you, not campaigining against them.

    On the point of Long Hair didn't Jesus have long hair?

    It is attitudes such as yours that start wars, and, i believe, led to Jesus' death in the first place. I would have thought that christians of all people would be accepting, after,. is it not in the christian faith to forgive? well, forgive me for being different to you, but do not become prejudiced against me, after all, it was prejudice that caused jesus' death, adn , if your attitudes continue, is likely to cause more deaths.

    Thankyou, and i hope you will think before writing such a dangerous article ever again

    The Fee Fairy (not an androgynous name i'm sure you will agree)


    The Goth thing (none / 0) (#80)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 01:39:23 PM PST
    This is a joke, right? Freedom of expression, speech and a right to life are all basic human rights in Europe - oh and discriminating against someone because of their religion, or lack of it is illegal here.
    Vampire hunting is legal, but only in England. This is good because vamps are sad and need to get a grip.

    Definitive link.... (none / 0) (#90)
    by opalhawk on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 04:57:57 PM PST
    I have found a link that clears this whole thing up....

    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

    Try this one... (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by finn on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 06:46:44 AM PST
    A link

    OMG! (5.00 / 1) (#125)
    by opalhawk on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 09:23:56 AM PST
    Thanks for that one! I think I just soiled myself laughing!

    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

    In reply to your "article" (none / 0) (#92)
    by J Lynne on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 07:38:15 PM PST
    First off, your definition of what Goths are and are not is completely erroneous. Goths are not linked to the Goths of the far East, it is instead a reference to Gothic, or romantic art of the Middle Ages. Goths do not oppose learning, that would be a much more Christian attribute than one belonging to Goths, who are mostly artists, poets, and the like. Goths are not, on the whole, violent, but are very tolerant of others and open to differences of opinion (not like some people I know...) Most of the disparaging qualities you have attributed to Goths can be found in greater abundance in your own backyard. Stop blaming them for what is wrong with the society YOU created. They are just reasonably angry with it. I went to Christian schools all my life, and that was much more detrimental to my psyche than any music or art genre. Furthermore, Goths are not linked to Satanism. Many of them are even Christians (for which I do not chastise them anyway).

    Jesus Freaks (none / 0) (#93)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 09:04:07 PM PST
    Ever see those people on the street wearing a sandwich board with "Jesus Saves" or other such nonsense on it, screaming about salvation to anyone who will listen? I guess it would be alright to catagorize every christian in with these raving lunatics? David Koresh ring a bell? He was a Christian who thought he was the reincarnation of Jesus. Well, we all know what happened in Waco. Goths hate learning? Most of the goths I have ever come across have been an extremely intellectual group that are well read in philosophy, literature, theatre, and the arts. Goths try to convert people to be like them? Goths shun most people because they don't have the intellectual ammo to have a decent conversation. Oh, and speaking of converting people, you have heard of the Crusades, right? When hundreds of thousands of people were savagely murdered because they would not convert to Christianity. On that note I leave you with a quote from Nietzsche:"Nobody is free to become a Christian: one is not converted to Christianty--one has to be sick enough for it."

    "so we fix our eyes not on what is seen... (none / 0) (#94)
    by xstitchx on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 09:08:40 PM PST
    ...but what is unseen. for what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal." (i corinthians 4:18) hello, my name is anne, its so nice to meet you! i'm going to college in a year to study art, philosophy, music, and religion. i won a recent battle with major depression! isn't that awesome? i couldn't have done it without God helping me through it. i feel genuinely happy now : ) i'd love to help you overcome your depression- or help you with anything in fact. i'm your sister in Christ, we're family. come over and eat dinner with me if you're hungry. i'll give you a place to sleep tonight; and tomorrow night too. come over sometime and we'll share in God's amazing beauty. anne, aka xstitchx "there is no dark side of the moon, really. as a matter of fact, its all dark." (pink floyd) aren't we all in the same boat? i'm tainted with sin, so are you. let's help each other with it. email me

    So bloody funny! (none / 0) (#96)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 11:23:01 PM PST
    You can't be serious, this must be a joke. Austin a gothic city? God, that was a good one! By the way, some people are talking about Marilyn Manson and KMFDM, they are not gothic. The article describes modern goth as if it was an American invention, nothing further from reality: THE GOTHIC SUBCULTURE STARTED IN ENGLAND. I'm not saying that the rest of the information is true either but it's so hilarious I couldn't stop laughing!

    So bloody funny! (none / 0) (#97)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 11:28:36 PM PST
    You can't be serious, this must be a joke. Austin a gothic city? God, that was a good one! By the way, some people are talking about Marilyn Manson and KMFDM, they are not gothic. The article describes modern goth as if it was an American invention, nothing further from reality: THE GOTHIC SUBCULTURE STARTED IN ENGLAND. I'm not saying that the rest of the information is true either but it's so hilarious I couldn't stop laughing!

    Um, HELLO? (none / 0) (#98)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 11:40:28 PM PST
    Ever heard of ironic humor? That's a joke, son. You're supposed to laugh. Or at least admit that you don't get it.

    thank you, and goodnight.

    The Truth about Goths! (none / 0) (#99)
    by Anonymous Reader on Wed Jul 18th, 2001 at 11:42:51 PM PST
    I am a GOTH, I believe in 1 GOD, I am Christian and I should be Evil???? I know the German Goth Scene, the Dutch Goth Scene and most specially the UK Goth Scene and all those people are really friendly. They are funny, they are good and warmhearted, even if they wear black. In the Goth scene you find tons of different beliefs like f.ex. Christianism, Buddhism, Islam, Paganism, Hinduism, Atheism, Satanism, and so on, and then you pretend that every goth would be Evil? I will personally state WHAT evil is in my eyes and in the eyes of us Europeans: EVIL is someone Intolerant, EVIL is someone Racist, EVIL is someone without any Respect, EVIL has nothing at all to do with the religion but with the caracter and personality of each person. EVIL it is as well to make campaigns against a whole culture, as it seems to be the case here. Oh and me as a Goth I did shake the hand of the Pope and this is NOT a joke, now tell me if he would agree with YOU or with ME if he would read this story???? If you are so-pretending-to-be-Christians, then it is high time that you wake up and really ACT like Christians and show tolerance for every creature on earth, no matter what his or her beliefs are. Soon it will be too late, and those pretending to be Christians like you, but that are in reality start making campaigns like in the middle-age against some friendly black-wearing people, will be the ones to be judged the most for her intolerance and her non-respect. Now I understand it when the Holy Mother said in one or a few of her apparitions that definately NOT all the pseudo-priests and pseudo-christians (making campaigns against friendly people) would see heaven....
    Anyways....whereelse on Earth is the proudness higher about Christianism than in the USA, but WHEREELSE on this Earth is happening the MOST of the Crimes??? USA.......and then you pretend to be Christians???????????????
    You hide under the mask of Christianism, as I think you're really the biggest Luciferworshippers than ever seen............think once of this before it will be too late and become tolerant towards the beings on this Earth!!!!!!!!
    As we all know......the MOST proudest Nations will get destroyed the FIRST!

    USA evil? (none / 0) (#130)
    by StephanisRail on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 10:07:05 AM PST
    Not all of us "yanks" are evil and racist. If the proudest nation is to be destroyed first then I wouldn't think it would be us, I think of nations as cultures and that would fall under christians etc. Remember its not our fault we are better then everyone else in alot of areas like Technology. But hey at the same point we are worst then alot of countries ie crime rate. Dont judge us because of our up bringing and because of what country we are from then it would be just as bad as the person who wrote the article.

    Goths and Vampirism (none / 0) (#100)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 12:36:25 AM PST
    Wow, until I read that article I had forgotten how judgemental and self-righteous society has become.
    First of all and most importantly black ISN'T the colour of evil, thats just a stupid misconception brought on by the early holy church. Black is actually the colour that wards off evil from a person, hence the reason black is worn at funerals!
    Secondly, you cannot blame all of America's problems on the colour of clothing a person wears, thats profound! No matter wether the person wears white or black, that doesn't mean that the person is good or evil and thinking such a stupid thing just prooves my point that you people who are so judgemental to come up with these pre-conceieved ideas are the most evil of us all.
    GOTH - traditionally a member of the germanic people whom invaded the british empire in the early Christian era, however the goth you speak of is mis judged....If people would stop being so closed minded then they would realise that most goths are intelligent open minded people, and definately not satanist/vampires! Being goth isn't about just wearing a black top and lipstick, the people who do so are what we like to call "poser goths" Most goths, with the expection of the posers are open minded, may wear black (for meaning of black see above) they may be Christian or not, and respect their individuality.
    You ought to be ashamed of yourselves for being so closed minded, reading your article made me feel bad for being a Christian goth, but I don't care for your opinion no more, for God is the only man who has the right to judge me.

    Amazingly misguided blanket statements (none / 0) (#101)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 12:51:18 AM PST
    Am I a goth? No.
    Am I a Christian? No.
    Do I have friends that are goth? yes
    Christian? yes

    First of all the Visigoths have nothing to do with today's "goth" subculture.
    Interestingly enough "goth" subculture is grounded quite heavily in Christian, particularly Catholic, imagery and ideology. Try making a search for gothic architecture. My guess is you'll find mainly churches. Examine gothic fashion and you will spend most of your time discussing the Victorian era.
    As per the turning away from learning bit- those people I know who would be considered "goths" are amongst the brightest, most intelligent, well-spoken, social people I've ever known. In fact I would venture to say that many of them became interested in the "goth" subculture because it offered literature, music, fashion, and imagery with far greater intellectual and emotional impact than the mass market, trend a week, commercial fodder offered up by the corporate entertainment industry.
    Oh, and if you can find a self-proclaimed "goth" over the age of 16 that feels Marilyn Manson falls into that category I'd be amazed.

    meaningless without context (none / 0) (#103)
    by jsm on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 03:27:22 AM PST
    those people I know who would be considered "goths" are amongst the brightest, most intelligent, well-spoken, social people I've ever known

    Without any baseline from which to judge, we don't know if this is a good thing about Goths, or a bad thing about you. Maybe you just need to get out more.

    far greater intellectual and emotional impact than the mass market, trend a week, commercial fodder offered up by the corporate entertainment industry.

    Newsflash: Marilyn Manson is on Interscope Records, part of AOL Time Warner, which, last time I looked, was part of the corporate entertainment industry

    ... the worst tempered and least consistent of the editors
    ... now also Legal department and general counsel,

    Comparisons (none / 0) (#114)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 06:54:34 AM PST
    If you have nothing to compare against what right do you have to comment on it. I personally have no knowledge about how to fly a plane so therefore I don't go around commenting on what I don't understand. If I knew about it fair enough. Just spouting petty bigortries and not having the decency to thoroughly read the post properly, s/he was saying if Marilyn Manson falls into the Goth catagory you'd be hard pressed to find anyone over 16 to verify that.

    Curious (none / 0) (#135)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 01:37:51 PM PST
    It seems to me, as i read these articles, that although our friend who posted this initial article is pretty biased. Alot of you seem to be too...
    who would be considered "goths" are amongst the brightest, most intelligent, well-spoken, social people I've ever known.

    do you just not know many people, is your surronding area filled with alot of sutpied people, or do you believe being gothing is a requirement for intelligence?
    its strikes me as odd, my personal experiance with "goths" has been so-so, half of them being reasonable, itelligent, though sometimes overly artistic(conversation doesn't last to long when someone can't stop talking about poetry after 3 hours), but i also have met many very stupid goths, very stuckup, very persecuting, "gothic" people as well. I infact dated a girl, goth & wiccan so she claims, who enjoyed scaring people. She would go to kmart, in her black, and hide around aisles & jump out at people, or follow them around till they got spooked and left the store. so, it seems there is two sides to this story as well,atleast hereabouts.
    another comment, it seems the younger goth generation is fleeing from the long hair at the same rate the rest of the youngins are, most highcshool goths i've seen tend to have hte punkish spiky type haircuts, same as nearly everyone else(infact, i was one of 3 long-hairs in my school, which has a fairly large gothic community). only major visable difference is the goth like kids tend to wear darker band tshirts, manson, cradle of filth, whatever. and the punk's wear blink 182, and whatever other bands(damned if i can remember what they are). There are others of course, but i don't wana go into a full political breakdown of my last year of highschool.

    p.s. i know i've been rambling & i've probably screwd up alot of spelling through here, i don't spell, well, so, please, by pass the flames

    Funniest thing I've sen this year! :) (none / 0) (#102)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 02:17:07 AM PST
    Cheers, that's made my day :)

    are you guys serious? (none / 0) (#104)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 04:04:53 AM PST
    Does anyone _really_ believe goths are virgin-napping, blood drinking oversexed satan worshippers?

    I considdered myself a weird (goth) person You have now shown me I'm a lot more sane then I thought.

    This entire website is an outrage. If I lived in the U.S.A. I would now go out and buy a gun to protect myself against prejudiced people like you here. Luckily (for you) the country I live in is smart enough not to allow citizens to own guns.

    Altough I've never intentionally harmed anyone it is perhaps time to elevate myself to your standards and go find myself a virgin to sacrifice.

    (it was hard not swear and curse at you)

    Cool (none / 0) (#105)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 04:15:51 AM PST
    I always considered goths kinda dorky, but after reading this article: hey, goths rule :)

    Siberia (none / 0) (#107)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 04:25:17 AM PST
    I'm a Goth and I 'd like to be deported to Siberia, please.
    I'm sick and tired of people pretending to be Christian and acting like they're God.
    I don't ever want to see this kind of ignorance again. It hurts me deeply and convinces me there is absolutely no hope left for mankind. Siberia seems like a peacefull and tranquil place.

    may God have mercy on your ignorant souls.

    I know how you feel (none / 0) (#134)
    by Maiden Shay on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 12:44:39 PM PST
    Thankyou very much. I am glad that I was not alone on this one. Maybe one day, people will take the time to actually talk to a goth, and find out something that is actually true. *sigh* Oh well, we seem like the only people here that are intelligent enough to pronounce a word that is longer than 'braindead'...!

    ~^\ Maiden Shay /^~

    Maybe one day people.. (2.00 / 1) (#158)
    by hollowshell on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 05:49:26 AM PST
    Maybe one day, people will read the fecking 'Mission statement' and realise they've been had?;page=mission

    The Hollow Shell
    Greenwich, london

    *Devonshire I am coming!*

    Funnier than a video of the holocaust!! (none / 0) (#108)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 05:22:27 AM PST
    Brilliant what an article!!How to piss off a whole genre in one fell swoop - have you people had a sense of humour bypass?? Havnt laughed so much since I last saw the Mission!!

    LMAO (none / 0) (#109)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 05:27:27 AM PST
    Thank you for your article, but you failed to mention one or two details.

    You didn't mention Gothic architecture [where all the buildings are painted in faded black with a white Sisters of Mercy emblazoned on the side] or the other interesting thing about the ancient Goths of Europe [that they were, in fact, far from fearsome - just pasty-faced, lily-livered cider-drinkers that ran away at the first sign of trouble].

    True-life conversation:

    Gothic Male: I always walk away from fights.
    Me: Why? You look like you could defend yourself.
    GM: *gasp!* I might break a nail!

    BTW, Gothic Males are more often than not called things like Tarquin Bingley-Smythe AKA Count of Blackness...

    J, incidentally, a Christian Goth.

    Goths etc (none / 0) (#111)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 06:21:47 AM PST
    I have no idea where you got your theories...but they're wrong. I've been a Goth for-freakin-ever and I can tell you we are nonviolent, peaceful people. The kids who did the school shootings were *not* goths. Oh and BTW vampires don't exist...that's just B grade horror movies! You are totally misinformed...and nobody appreciates having their culture slandered. How would you like it if a bunch of Goths put up a website saying how *your* way of life is totally wrong? Live and let live. Didn't Jesus say let him without sin throw the first stone? are you without sin? Judge not lest ye be judged. If you are a Christian, then you must abide by the words of Jesus. Currently, you're not doing that.


    goths (none / 0) (#116)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 07:32:54 AM PST
    How does this website maintain such a knowledge of the goth community all over the world? You must have met every goth that ever lived to be that sure of the opinions you share. You must also have met every male christian follower to be so sure that none ever had long hair. What does hair matter anyway. Anyone can be a madman and shoot innocent children. Innocent people are being killed every day. Hitler was not a goth. Ariel Sharon is not a goth and yet in Palestine at the moment, the Isreali policy of shoot-to-kill is maiming and killing children in the most horrific ways. PLEASE do not label every person dressed in black or every male with long hair as evil, as a murderer, as a vampire. The pressure put upon people who are told they will go to hell unless they follow Christ, is as emotionally damaging and unfair for people innocently trying to live their lives in their own way, as any other similar nasty element in society, goth or otherwise. This one sided viewpoint, addressed by this webpage, is very damaging to innocent people. Law abiding, God-fearing Christians themselves are insulted when they are compared with the fake religions, that use Jesus' name in vain. Therefore please do not slander a long haired male with the label of child-murderer.
    God gave us our own minds and our own personal tastes. He wants us to be unique. Body piercings and tattoos are an expression of one's own personality. He also placed us on this earth with no clothes. We have modified our appearance simply by making clothing a law-imposed accessory. We choose the patterns, shapes and colours of our clothes. Its what makes us all different. The length of our hair and earrings we wear should be seen in the same way.

    Vicki, from Cardiff, UK

    Hitler *was* a Goth (5.00 / 1) (#129)
    by jsm on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 10:02:06 AM PST
    Look at the signs
    • Wore a lot of black
    • Obsessed with the occult
    • Sexually dysfunctional
    • Determined enemy of "normal" people
    • Underachiever at school
    • Committed suicide
    All that's missing is the long hair, and that simply wouldn't have been practical for a military man. Hitler was a prototype Goth.

    Ariel Sharon is not a goth and yet in Palestine at the moment, the Isreali policy of shoot-to-kill is maiming and killing children in the most horrific ways.

    For someone who appears to be obsessed with Hitler, you certainly seem to have a problem with the legitimate self-defence of the State of Israel. Please try to keep a lid on the anti-Semitism.

    ... the worst tempered and least consistent of the editors
    ... now also Legal department and general counsel,

    What are you talking about????? (none / 0) (#117)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 07:35:17 AM PST
    What are you talking about? I'm a professional student (major: Computer Programming - about to graduate), work at a Computer College, a former Computer Programmer, and I LOVE TO LEARN!!!!!

    I have to disagree with the fact that "Goths don't like school" or "Goths don't like to learn". I guess you can call me a "Goth" because I wear all black, listen to the music that "Goths" listen to, and whatever. But I am very intelligent, and I love to learn. I made terrific grades in High School, and I was capable of making an 'A' on a test even if I didn't study because of my high I.Q. I also scored high on the Placement Test when entering college, and well above average on the ACT Test when applying for a job at a Computer College (which I now work at). I remember in High School, I would have four days to complete a HUGE project, and I was capable of finishing within twenty minutes while the class sat there trying to figure out what to do. I go to school for Computer Programming now, and I am three classes away from graduating with a degree. I also work at a Computer/Technology College as an Administrater. I plan to get my MCSE Microsoft Certification, and I currently have my Information Technology - AS/400 Certificate.

    Yes, when I was 13 and 14 years old, I was rebellious, wore all black (and I still do all the time - that's all I own really). I carry around a bat box inlined with velvet. I wear silver and black jewelry and listen to Gothic/Industrial bands. I hang out with alot of people that are "Goths", "Hippies", and even "Preppies". I don't judge them, and they don't judge me.

    Most of the "Goths" I've known are VERY INTELLIGENT, did well in school (if they didn't, it was because they were bored with the 'lack of challenge' in schools today), ARE VERY COMPUTER-ORIENTED, and the greatest friends (because they can be pretty deep, caring, and nurturing) you can ever have.

    So don't judge us by saying that we don't like to learn and such. Because you know better than I do, that you are 'narrow-minded' and 'full of it'. You don't know us, and you probably never took the time to know us. I'm a "Goth" to society, and I'm proud of it. I'm also proud of my great success, and I'm only 21 years old. By the way, I was a Computer Programmer when I was 20 years old at a Market Research firm HA!!!! I didn't even have a degree or certification at that time. So HA!!!! You can't say we are losers, because I know I probably accomplished more than you have if you created this website.

    Well, I'm off to work now. I really hope to recieve a REPLY from you. It's easy proving stupid people wrong. >=-P

    Hello, Dumbasses (none / 0) (#118)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 07:59:55 AM PST
    Ummmm... this is aboviously a joke from the beginning. If you couldn't figure that out you're an idiot. Upset by goth stereotypes? Then get a brain and stop being one.

    My life as a goth. (none / 0) (#121)
    by StephanisRail on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 08:46:16 AM PST
    Hey I am 26 and have been listening to the Gothic style of music since MTV (yes its evil now but that is a whole different story) came on the sceen. Now aparently you have never taken a history class, I say this because the Goth culture is in no way related to the Goths and Visigoths of the Dark Ages which came after the fall of the Roman empire. Also we do not consider our selves Kindred (the proper term for Vampires). Although some troubled souls do think that and it is far from the norm. As far as our music goes most of it is not devil worship and pertains to events that are happening in the real world. It is not "candy coated" like everything else. And if it helps I am goth and listen to Yeasterday. Also what you perceive is very steriotypical (I know I cant spell very well, but oh well). As far as I am concerned I listen to the music and love the sceen, I only dress in black when it is required to get into a club or concert. For my education I finished in the top 5 of my class and then went off to the Army for 8 years of Honorable duty including various awards. I even spent a year in Korea and 2 in Arizona before going to the reserves to be closer to my parents who needed me to be close. Since I have been home I have been in the Army Reserves just recently leaving do to my time in the Army being up. I now am very successful in the field of Computers and I travel often, as a matter of fact I am going to Scotland next week. Also as far as I know, wasn't it the christian religion that tried to kill and destroy every other religion that was competition to it? I mean look at the Inquisition and the Time Of Burning.This is just a sampling of what is known to be the truth and I hope it is not censored.

    Goths - A final solution to what exactly? (none / 0) (#131)
    by Maiden Shay on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 12:32:40 PM PST
    I found your comments on the Gothic culture HIGHLY offensive.
    From what you have been saying, I guess you don't no much about Goths...oh, except they wear black and use big hard words...It's actually called 'making an effort'.
    I myself am a goth. If you took time to see past the stereo-types, you would see that only about 1/4 of us are actually 'Vampyres'. That percentage of goths are called, amazingly, 'Vampyre gothic'. There are at least four types of goth. I suggest you look up something about all of them before you start talking bullshit about ALL goths drinking blood. Huh, that shows how ignorant your post was!

    And another thing, goths are actually HUMAN. Ok, so we don't follow (or even like) the mainstream fashion, but we eat, sleep, laugh and even shit just like the mainstream. We DO NOT go around shooting people because we hate them for being 'normal'. That is just another ignorant, full of shit statement. Where did you come up with such a thing?

    At the end of the day, you have just proved that the only people with cold, black, evil hearts are people like youself. You have just displayed such behaviour. Unfortunatly, your whole plan to 'expose' goths has back-fired. Any one with any sense will see that you have just exposed YOURSELF to such hatred.

    ~^\ Maiden Shay/ ^~

    Ha! (none / 0) (#133)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 12:44:22 PM PST
    <i>Like Scots with Tartan, or Jews with skullcaps, it is well known that stomping out the clothing of the creed harms the creed itself.</i>

    Way to re-enact the Jacobite fiasco. Are you people really that simple-minded?

    You people should all read C.S. Lewis and take a step back before going off, half-cocked discussing something you really know nothing about.

    I'm from New York, I'm a Goth, and had a Catholic upbringing that I really don't disagree with. I've never once known anyone with a fetish for drinking blood, and the list goes on and on.

    Your blind idolization of Rome, by the way, completely eludes me. Rome was first a great persecuter of the Christian faith and then became a bloated imperialist force which sowed the seeds for corruption throughout much of western civilization.

    The term "Goth" stems from a romantic revival of gothic architecture/literature/poetry/whatnot that has nothing to do with the barbarians who invaded Rome, by the way, as the Gothic architecture movement in the middle ages likewise had nothing to do with them. It was a term describing said architecture as gaudy and barbaric.

    But people like us hate learning, so I wonder how I got this information.

    By the way, hair length is just a period fashion trend. Many good Christians over the years have had it.

    I bet you people like Fred Phelps, too.

    I likely think this article is a joke, it's so completely over the top. If it is, I'm laughing. Hard.


    what the fuck? (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by jsm on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 12:49:14 AM PST
    <i>had a Catholic upbringing [...] I've never once known anyone with a fetish for drinking blood</i><p>So you've never been to Mass then? What kind of a Catholic upbringing do you call that?

    ... the worst tempered and least consistent of the editors
    ... now also Legal department and general counsel,

    Lol (none / 0) (#136)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 01:55:06 PM PST
    this was such a funny article! - you have to be either a)on drugs b)insane or c)being ironic

    cute website (none / 0) (#139)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 03:31:56 PM PST
    this stuff is funny as hell! Keep up the good work!

    Quality laughs (none / 0) (#140)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 04:51:30 PM PST
    yup this was a really funny site
    bradford U.K.

    How sad... (none / 0) (#142)
    by Nathaniel Fox on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 05:24:23 PM PST
    Rarely do I have the pleasure of immersing myself in as misinformed and mindlessly biased piece of tripe as this article. My goodness, there are so many erroneous assumptions, misrepresentations, and outright lies, that it's hard to know where to start a deconstruction.

    At age 42, about to be 43, I can claim to have been a part of the Goth scene since its very inception, at the time that bands like U.K Decay, Joy Division and the Banshees began to define the genre. It is simply an offshoot of the Punk movement, many of its founders--Siouxsie Sioux, Ian Curtis, Peter Murphy, among others--having arisen directly from the Punk milieu.

    This article goes out of its way to depict the genre in a negative light, using unsupported "factoids," invalid comparison, and sweeping generalizations. The mere fact that the writer feels a needs to provide a (completely irrelevant) history of the Ostrogoths and Visigoths is enough to show me he (she?) has no idea what he's talking about. Either that, or this is simply a parody.

    The term "Goth," as it applies to a musical orientation, has nothing at all to do with historical cultures, and much more to do with an architectural/artistic style. The term itself was coined by Ian Astbury of Sex Gang Children, in an effort to attach a descriptive label to his musical style. At the time, he was thinking of the brooding elements common to Gothic architecture, and he felt this term best evoked his band's sound.

    That aside, this article persists in disseminating falsehoods. Somehow, the author has arrived at the conclusion that Goths are likely to shoot down their classmates. Where's the proof for this? Columbine? Oh, please. Black trenchcoats and a sense of alienation do not a Goth murderer make, nor should the rather anecdotal occurrence surrounding Columbine even be brought into the discussion. Music, videa games and television had nothing to do with those murders. As a parent, I assert that poor parenting and failure of school officials created the atmosphere leading up to that tragic event. Goth is not even a minor part of the equation.

    I would essentially make the same points regarding every other issue raised in this article. Vampirism? Never done it, never seen it done. And, remember; I've been a Goth for nigh onto twenty-three years. Kidnapping of virgins? I'd be the first to report it to the police, and I have simply never had to. Sex-crazed? Hardly. I've rarely seen a more self-controlled group of music aficionados in my life.

    Enough of this rant. This article is either a joke, perhaps evidenced by its generous inclusion of links to Goth-related Web sites, or an exercise in thoughtless ignorance and willful deception. I am, incidentally, part of the same social circle as Josie Nutter, who has herself responded to this article, and I can ably verify that she is not only Goth, but every bit as disciplined and professional as she states. I'm sure she could say the same of me, even though I'm Goth and have raised my fifteen year-old daughter as a Goth.

    I have no fear for my daughter's safety or ethics in this realm, and neither should anyone else. It's just about the music.

    What would be if? :o) (none / 0) (#147)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 19th, 2001 at 11:30:57 PM PST

    Due to your racist article, your evil campaigns against people, I see myself forced to send a letter to your Local Police Station, to Amnesty International, just as to the highest and most important Member of the Christian Church, Mr Jean-Paul II.

    What you are doing is having NO respect in front of the Civil Laws, as you are disrespecting the personal rights of each human being to have a free will. Such behaviour can not be tolerated, having such prejudices and calling up to persecute people, may they be goth or not, like you do, can not be tolerated.

    Yours faithfully,

    Membaris Von Stranz

    Class is in Session (none / 0) (#148)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 12:33:43 AM PST
    Remeber "A modest Proposal" class? Satire my dear Watson Satire!

    Satire? (none / 0) (#167)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 02:38:12 AM PST
    No dear. Sick of it. S - I - C - K.

    Have you been stopped by strangers on the street and asked pointed questions about your lifestyle? People who mean well but read something on a website, or watched a television news magazine or heard it on the Bob Larson show?

    so much for love thy neighbor (none / 0) (#149)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 12:43:20 AM PST
    I don't pretend to be realigious or know the bible back and front but i do know my commandments and this artical is in clear violation of at least one of them. So let me just tell. I am not a gothic, i am a band nerd. but most of my friends are goths. I have no trouble fitting in to their little world. friends are friends no matter what color they are or what they wear or believe. Most of my goth friends have at least a 3.00 and most above. Heck one of them is a devote catholic. mind you there are varring extremes but you cant judge everyone by one standard especailly if it is an extreme. so just think about what you are saying and who you are hurting by creating hate.

    Confused (none / 0) (#153)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 02:15:17 AM PST
    At first I thought this article was serious, but upon reading it again I find myself wondering. It sounds too facetious in places. Can anyone really be THAT ignorant? Either the author is a religious bigot in severe need of therapy, or they've got an excellent, if twisted, sense of humor! From either angle, the article has ceased to make me mad and has become something highly humorous. Thanks for the laugh, bc!

    tis true-gothism is satanic. (5.00 / 2) (#154)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 02:33:02 AM PST
    Dear bc,

    I am a goth. You're knowledge and insight on the goth movement is surprising to me, because it is all so relevant and so accurate. Yes, it is true...the goth movement is very demonic. I confess, we are all Satanic, blood sucking, drug using heathens. I know this, because I am a Satanic, blood sucking, drug using heathen myself. And ALL goths are Satanic, blood sucking, drug using, heathens. Oh...they will deny it to you, and protest and tell you that they aren't. But durring the night, when all the goths are out about the graveyards and fetish nightclubs, reaking havoc and drinking blood...if you sneek into their rooms, I can assure you, that if you search, you will find Hexes, upside-down crosses, Satanic Bibles, mutilated kittens and pictures of Anton Lavey hung on their walls.

    To tell a bit about myself, as I stated earlier, I am a goth, and I've been brainwashed in the goth movement for 10 years. I am a part of a goth tribe called "Satan's hands". We are a fairly known goth tribe, and we get a huge following. We despise anything of color. Infact, if someone even wears something that is not a full shade (such as 'charcoal grey') of black, we mock and scorn them. We hate the sunlight. We hate people. We hate animals, we hate each other. We hate food. We hate life. We LOVE blood. Infact, bloodletting is a huge part of our lifestyle. One of our bloodletting rituals is where we inject a needle into our veins and drench it all over what little food we do eat. And then we put the rest of in super soaker guns and have a 'blood gun' fight. It's alot of fun.

    We ARE all avid Satan Worshipers. Infact, we all have signed coppies of Anton Lavay's Satanic Bible. He was such a noble and inteligent man. And as a part of our Satanic rituals, we participate in alot of animal sacrifices. We usually only sacrifice puppys and kittens. And VIRGINS. Virgins are specialty-you hit it on the nose when you wrote in you're article that we love virgins.

    Anyway, although corpse snatching, drinking blood, and sacrificing baby animals has it's thrills, there is a downside to this culture. In my life, I am experiencing a downfall in my schoolastic work. In fact, I hate school, and I hate everyone there. The gothism has gotten to my mind, my grades are plumating and I want to kill everyone there. Just like those kids did at Columbine. They were really goth and really inteligent-I really look up to them. At school one day, I became so anti-social and angst ridden, and hateful (due to my gothic lifestyle, mind you), that I was sitting in biology class, and we were disecting a frog (that was really cool though, because we got to cut up an annimal and see it's guts), and I, all of a sudden plunged the scalp into my classmate's arm. I was suspended from school for a year, and was almost kicked out. My rich parents, however, negotiated a way for me to go back.

    But bc, the demonic way of the goth life is really getting to me. I am constantly falling under the peer presure of my fellow goth-siblings...and I am using alot of drugs and ultimately destroying myself. Listening to these Marilyn Manson records and Switchblade Symphony records makes me want to kill alot of people and kill myself. I want to get out of this lifestyle, but my friends and peers from our tribe will flog me, butcher me and take away all my things I bought from 'Hot Topic' if I do. And I so want to stray away from Satanism. I really want to know the ways of Christ and turn away from the darkness...but I will be betraying my Satanic tribe if I do, and once again, they will all mutillate (sp?-see, the wretched goth mentality inside me is causing me to mispell.) me and ultimately, slowly kill me. What should I do? How do I get out of this goth lifestyle of the evil and the wicked?

    what a bunch of nonsense (none / 0) (#168)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 07:29:40 AM PST
    all this about goths all being devil worshipping heathens is a total lie. I don't know what you people are trying to do by talking down on other people but it's all a bunch of propaganda set up by your religion to control how people think. Jocks in high school are the worst example of how you want your children to grow up because jocks are the kids going to keg parties and date raping girls more than any other group that I can think of.

    It's humor, dearie (none / 0) (#187)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jul 23rd, 2001 at 10:38:12 AM PST
    The article's fine-tuned sense of humor appears to have escaped you on first reading. Please do yourself a favor and go back and read it again, taking note of the author's tongue firmly lodged in cheek, and read the links, which lead to much information that's intended to help set the record straight about Goths. I'm not one myself - far too old and unhip for that - but as I live in Seattle I am surrounded on all sides by them, and find them to be charming folks when they don't take themselves too seriously. Come to think of it, nearly everyone in Seattle wears black (absorbs heat from the occasional sunlight), is pale of complexion (see note about sunlight), and shuns direct contact with the sun's rays (see above as to why this isn't a problem here). It was a terrific article - my compliments to the author - and after all this time I think we ought to let bygones be bygones about the sacking of Rome business.

    Are you as nuts as the people who posted? (none / 0) (#186)
    by StephanisRail on Mon Jul 23rd, 2001 at 10:33:33 AM PST
    I dont know what Goth culture you are apart of or if your just being sarcastic (which would at least cause some slight humor with me? If you honestly do that stuff and consider yourself apart of the gothic community, then you must seek help. I find it is hard to refrain from stating the obvious about your situation...hopefully your intelligent enought to figure it out on your own.

    Haha... (none / 0) (#206)
    by Mercy on Thu Dec 13th, 2001 at 08:39:23 AM PST
    I'm pretty sure that person was picking on the people who wrote this article. Read it again, and try not to drown in the sarcasm.

    re:tis true-gothism is satanic (none / 0) (#194)
    by wiccanboi on Sat Jul 28th, 2001 at 07:35:02 AM PST
    what this guy said aint all true im a goth im 15 but i hate satan and no this aint wat he calls "denying" oh no infact i go to church every sunday no questions asked yeah "all" goths are exactly the same my @$$ you go out and talk to as many goths as you can and you'll see they aint all alike :P

    Mwahaha (none / 0) (#201)
    by Anonymous Reader on Fri Aug 31st, 2001 at 12:06:36 PM PST
    My goth!! you have to have given me the best laugh ive had in ages!! Congrats on a healthy sense of humour!!

    Devils Advocate

    "God himself doesnt intend on judging people until their final days, why should we judge any sooner?"

    re:tis true-gothism is satanic (none / 0) (#204)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Sep 10th, 2001 at 09:36:25 AM PST
    You must be mad! I am Goth and I don't even believe in Satan or use Drugs or alcohol. Whoever told you that is how we are misinformed you severely. Your ideas are those of a very troubled person and you should seek help. There have been many Murders and criminals that were Catholics and Christians. Criminals have no specific religion they can be anyone. Same goes for drug users and "Devil" worshippers. it was the Catholic church who created Satan anyway to scare others into coming to their "GOD". So don't tell me I worship Satan when he doesn't even really exist.

    YOUR A TOOL (none / 0) (#208)
    by bigpappasmurf on Fri Dec 14th, 2001 at 08:05:46 PM PST
    your not a goth, your a tool of the socity when you talk about how you were brainwashed and all goth's are satanic "blood sucking" hethens. your not a goth, i'm a goth and none of what you say is right, you deserve to burn in your own hell and keep your stupit thoughts out of my life. Stop trying to make me what your want me to be. *K K K K *K K KK *K K K K *K Kronik (please if your a goth,which i really think your not, you would know what that is)

    goths... (none / 0) (#163)
    by Ralziel on Fri Jul 20th, 2001 at 04:45:29 PM PST
    Ok... i am 18 yrs old and i find that article highly offensive, as i am a goth, and have been so for 7 years now. Many of the opinions stressed in the article are form people who are obviously closed-minded, bigoted, idiotic sheep who have no idea what they are talking about. I have never participated in vampirism or any other depraved activities mentioned above, and don't ntend to in future. I am however gay, but that is consequential. Goth society is a place where everyone is accepted for who they are, where intelligence is praised and appreciated and where no matter who you are, you will have friends and social standing. It is my view that in an oh-so-typical american way,the writer of the article has looked through the more tongue-in-cheek side of goth on the web and made a sweeping generalisation. People are drawn to goth because they are generally more intelligent than the norm, and desire a forum in which to share their ideas, no matter how outlandish they may seem. I could go on, but to do so would be pointless, as 99% of you probably wouldn't read it, or would have difficulty in doing so.

    Lies & Deceit (none / 0) (#166)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 12:35:28 AM PST
    I am a 37 year old, colege grad who has owned his own business for the last five years and just bought a house last April. I'm getting married to a wonderful woman next October. I love God and am very thankful for the blessings bestowed upon me. I have been involved in the Gothic subculture for the last 15 years. The statements found on your website are false and malicious. Considering that one's failure to accept human sacrifice (Christus on the tree) and ritual cannabalism (communion) would damn that individual to hell, it is very hypocritical for anyone practicing the modern ChristShun faith to make claims such as these.

    If you can do no better than lie about people that you don't like, perhaps you should go back and look at the friends of Christus. Would they be your friends? Would you care if some whore hung herself in the deepest moment of despair? Or would you blame that devil that you have made so strong? If you are not going to live a life of love, go follow someone else. Leave Christus to those who can accept all that God has created.

    Excellent piece of writing!! (none / 0) (#170)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 10:37:27 AM PST
    I have to say, this is one of the funniest spoof articles I've read on the web in a long while. I'm sure would love to have you writing for them!!

    And in the unlikely event that this is serious, I really think you should get out more.

    Goth? (none / 0) (#171)
    by Darkangelfire on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 11:57:21 AM PST
    I am a 34 year old mother of two, happily married for 14 years. I home school my two children, and am a *traditional* kind of homemaker. I spend my days teaching my children, studying for my own personal growth, doing arts and crafts, cooking and cleaning, etc. I am a goth, and somehow I just don't think I classify under your blinded perceptions. There is a whole world around you. Why don't you just take a moment and view it from your own eyes, from your own heart? Put aside all you are prgrammed to think, just look at it. I don't any of what you see is going to match what you've been taught. Oh, and by the way, Jesus had long hair, and many people of his time period that "followed" him had long hair. The cultural acceptance of hair length comes and goes with the passing of time, and I really cannot see how long hair has anything to do with one's moral values. Well, unless Jesus was something other than what you think he was... -Darkangelfire

    I Certainly Hope This Was A Joke.......... (none / 0) (#176)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sat Jul 21st, 2001 at 06:39:32 PM PST
    Sir, (because no woman would say she belonged in the kitchen) Being one of the "Goths" you so rudely bashed in your story Goths and Vampirism - A final solution?, on July 16th, I would like to point out that not all of us are vampires. We all do not suck blood......We all do not hate school. I graduated high school with my class actually, Class of '01. I'm sure there are a lot of people whom you have offended with your ignorance, and I certainly do not appreciate you leveling the evil label on all Goths. We are a very quiet people, most of us have steady jobs, and families, and I worked my way through depression for a time....until society smacked me back down. I am one of the nicest people you'll ever meet, if only people took the time to talk to me. I have been an outcast not by choice but forcibly, by in your words, not mine "good Christian kids" at high school. But I did not take it out on my fellow students. Just because of scattered incidents around the world you cannot blame ALL school incidents on Goths. Actually, in your little story, it sounds like you just took the worst information from each website you used and listed on your bibliography list....and used it to try and brainwash people....which by the way, you Christians are very good at, (No I am not a Satanist, I am an atheist, I gave up on religion a long time ago)into thinking that all of us are evil people who need to be in your words "stamped out". Hmmm sounds Hitler-esque to me. Think about it. You want to do to the people who are sorely misunderstood by society what Hitler did to the Jews in World War II. You are calling for genocide, which is not excusable by ANY god. You believe that WE should pay for society's mistakes? I'll bet you are the type who was very popular in school.....cheerleader/football player, etc. Well I wasn't. And I adopted a lifestyle that fit the pain of not being accepted by society. Also I was never good at anything....athletics, science, etc. Not to mention the guy you interviewed, Kevin I think it was? is ONE person in ONE situation. You did not give any Goths a chance to rebut or anything. What kind of journalism is that? Poor judgement in my opinion. Just because a strange mixed up group in big cities get together and do the vampire thing.....which I find childish by the way.......sounds like Halloween.....You lead people to believe that it is everywhere. I have grown accustomed to being the "local freak" in this small town atmosphere I live in. It doesn't bother me. If I want to wear black clothing and white makeup to convey sorrow or depression, that's my business. IT DOES NOT ALWAYS CONVEY DEATH. If you all want to wear your WWJD and Jesus Saves t-shirts, that's your business. And for crying out loud leave the music out of it. Oh yeah, and one more up to Jocks? are you serious? that's laughable...and also...where did you get the ridiculous idea that we all deny our sex? That is funny stuff....send it to NBC or Fox....LMAO...Get your facts straight and stop being so damn IGNORANT.

    mmm... (none / 0) (#180)
    by Anonymous Reader on Sun Jul 22nd, 2001 at 05:07:29 PM PST
    This has been an interesting site. Not so much for the article itself but more perhaps because of the reactions to it. Regardless of whether or not this was a joke, it has sparked some interesting comments. It has made some people critically think and share their veiws with others and be subject to question.
    I think it functions as an example of how extreme views have always served to make us critically examine how far we would be willing to take an issue by galvinizing our own personal sense of conviction. More people have become more broad-minded and educated about goth subculture because of this article, be it serious or not.

    Let us not forget that humor has often been used as a vehicle for making people look at social issues. If in doubt look at The Far Side, George Carlin, The Daily Show or Monty Python; all them have at one time or another made light of some serious social issues.

    What an upsetting page (none / 0) (#189)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 24th, 2001 at 08:39:51 AM PST
    This page almost brought me to tears.

    I should clarify - the page, not the article. I was smirking throughout the article. It amused me.

    Then came the comments. Approximately 140 posts claiming to be intelligent happy goths. Approximately 20 posts being amused.

    I had thought better of goths. I thought goths tended to have a sense of irony. Alas, it seems it's too true that only the English understand irony.

    At least somebody saw a parallel with A Modest Proposal, even if they didn't see fit to provide a link. But still, no matter how low my opinion of people gets, it seems I can never get it low enough.


    Goths (none / 0) (#191)
    by Caitriona on Tue Jul 24th, 2001 at 04:00:35 PM PST
    Ok somebody has done no research into any thing to do with the Gothic Subculture to write this article. I'm guessing the guy is a very strict Christian of a protestant faith? No a bad thing to be, but some are too strict and don't see the reality of difference. I'm a practicing christian whom does frequent the Goth scene, I'm also an above average student attending medical school. I have great interest in learning as do most "Goths" I know have, many are very literate, and as is usually pointed out are very poetic, writing poetry that is yes very melancholic but beautiful, tha same can be said for Donne, Yeats, Kates and Hemmingway. Black is a very popular colour, very highly regarded in fashion, yes its dark but the colour associated with suicide is yellow, so do we stop all those cheerleaders from killing themselves? Trench coats? As woren by those who defended the rights of all? Yeah they're bad, come on just because some kids whom had too easy access to guns and seem to be bullied decided to " go out in style" doesn't mean we all are, I'm actually a pacifist. And your idea about women, please at least get into the 20th century if you can't make the 21st. There's my rant. I'm the antithesis to the all american kid but I'm the one respected, looked up to and depended upon. Enjoy deversity, the NAZI party didn't.

    this gothic column (none / 0) (#192)
    by wiccanboi on Thu Jul 26th, 2001 at 12:34:01 AM PST
    all this gothic stuff isnt true im a gothic teen and im wiccan too and its not true im a very cheery person and i loath and hate the devil the only bad goth is a goth that dont believe in god and most do believe so you should be ashamed for this horrible crap you post its b/s to alot of people and it hurts people to be accused of crap that aint true how would you feel if some one accused you for something that wasnt true huh tell me that well now i must go i hope i got through

    Thanx it realy made me laugh (none / 0) (#193)
    by Anonymous Reader on Thu Jul 26th, 2001 at 05:02:02 AM PST
    The comments on Goth were so funny I could hardly stop laughing whell back to work.


    OK..... (none / 0) (#195)
    by Trakor on Tue Jul 31st, 2001 at 12:48:13 AM PST
    I know what you posted must have been a joke, since no christian could possibly believe such vial filth about an entire group of people simply by seeing them from afar, but I was troubled enough to decide to comment on the situation.

    1. First of all, it appeared you were not only ripping into the flesh of Goth's, but that of Jews as well, you sound almost like on of the Nazi's.

    2. My girlfriend of two years who I just had to break up with upon my arrival in georgia is gothic. She is a little over sixteen years old, as am I. We both entered the relationship as virgins, and we both exited the relationship as virgins. We thought we were going to be together forever, so why was it important for us to have sex? The answer is, it wasn't. Although the topic did occassionly come up, we mutually decided that the risks of pregnancy even with contraceptives were far too high, especially for a couple of middle class teenagers. By the way, my girl-friend was quite feminine. She wouldnt have been a GIRLfriend if she wasnt. None of the goths I know are gothic simply because of some need or thirst for sex, and I know this because I have been gothic for four years. Since I was 12, just like Kevin.

    3. Kevin wasn't gothic, he was a stormtrooper. Anyone who believes in there being a positive side to Nazi's or who collect nazi propaganda should have their heads closely examined. I hate the fact that simply because I am gothic, I am compared to murderers, and people like the SS.

    4. Check your facts on vampirism again, you were way off for the most part.

    5. Jesus had hair which was longer then shoulder length. Are you suggesting we all go shave our heads? (By the way, Jesus, your savior, wasn't even white. He lived in Israel, therefore he would have had to have been Arabic. Another way the Bible was mutilated by white people. Don't take this as racism, I myself am white.)

    6. I'm not Christian. I am Wiccan, and I am damn proud of it. Some people like to compare me to a Satan worshipper or something along those lines because I am pagan. Let me bring a quick fact to your attention. In my religion, there is no Satan. No, "creator of evil". Evil is created by humans who have beliefs instead of ideas, and who decide that they have the right to kill simply because someone else's beliefs differ from their own. In fact, in my religion, you aren't evil allowed to give name to evil itself, because we believe to name something is to give it power.

    7. The drugs. I know more preps and jocks who smoke weed then mode of the wiccans I know. I don't even have a problem with people smoking weed, since it is such an old tradition and harms nobody except the user. I smoke weed, but guess what? I don't do ANY other drugs. I don't even drink. I only smoke weed on a social basis, and I haven't done that in around two months.

    8. My final point. This is a tru story of something that happened to me one and a half years ago. I was a freshman in High School at Eden Prairie High School in Eden Prairie Minnesota. It was the begining of april, and I was seriously depressed. I was at the time, ofcourse, gothic. I had been threatened numerous times by Preps and Jocks, and white suburban middle to upper class ghetto wannabes, that I would be harmed or killed if I continued to believe in my faith, and wear the clothes I had every right to wear, seeing as how I went to a public school without a dress code. It was aproaching the anniversary of columbine, and many people, including me, were nervous about what may happen if the fights in the halls and such didn't stop immediately. This is when it got bad. I started getting searched every day because of the way I dressed, Illegally searched, I might add, since my parents were not informed and the door was closed witch is against the law to do to a minor. I blew this off, citing it as the school trying to protect everyone there, including me. Finally, on April 18th, I got fed up and transferred out of that school. I was tired of the hate, racism, neglect, and many other things the school had let boil over. This was the best decision I have ever made in my young life. On April twentieth, a Prep, one of those kids who wears abercrombie and fitch and seems sooooooo perfect to people like you, brought a gun to school. He then attempted to shoot my friends one by one, and apparently wanted to kill me as well, although I had already officially left the school (he didnt know I had left for good...). The over-weight middle-aged rent-a-cop security guards actually managed to stop him and keep him down until the police came. This was the only time I can remember them doing anything positive. Luckily, nobody was shot. Very lucky. But its always the goths, is it? By the way, only two of the members of 'the Trench Coat Mafia' were involved in the columbine shooting, and neither wore a trench coat the day of the attack. They both wore cammaflouge. Check your facts preacher man.

    - Trakor

    umm.... (none / 0) (#196)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 31st, 2001 at 05:12:59 AM PST
    "It is well known that long hair is not Christian"
    where do you get this fact from?! did i miss something here? What does it matter how long ur hair is? and what does it matter how Jesus looked, it the inside that counts in any religion or believe.... and body decoration has been around for ages, like everything u have different levels of body piercings, and it's for decoration or a form of meditation (that's prolly satanic as well hey!)what about eating ur meat medium to rare? that's prolly a demonic behaviour as well *shake head* this is the most pathetic thing i've read in ages.... it's the same thing when u say all christians are like u! judging other people's believes and cultures! i feel ashamed to be known a christian when there's people like u... u give christains a bad name!
    maybe you should do something constructive in your spare time, rather than judge other people...

    trying to be a hitler? (none / 0) (#197)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 31st, 2001 at 05:32:20 AM PST
    Good that u don't have ur name or any personal details on this site cos u managed to piss off a whole genre in one shot! think u should lock ur doors and watch ur baq dewd

    PS: maybe u can apply for the genius book of records, on the other hand i don't think u can compete with hitler though :)

    Is this a joke?! (none / 0) (#198)
    by Anonymous Reader on Tue Jul 31st, 2001 at 06:22:56 PM PST
    This has to be a joke, it has to be. I'm reading this and I just can't help thinking that THIS person, and people like this person instead of the "Goths" is the real problem with society. First off, to say that any such group ALL worship satan and are vampires is completley ridiculous. That's like saying ALL black people sell drug, or all Jews are greeedy or whatever assinine steryotypes are associated with a particular group. Those of rational mind KNOW that that cannot possibly be true. It is unfair and biased to say that ALL goths drink blood and worship Satan. Ideas like that are what really pollute our communities and our world for that matter. The unfair judgement of people because they dress and worship differently is purely the action of those with narrow minds and obviousley ill judgement. Second, whether we like it or not, the world is full of corrupt people. Yes, some who follow the gothic life-style may worship satan-not ALL who follow the gothic life-style worship Satan. And some christians molest children and steal and kill, but by all means not ALL christians do it. It's on the news and in the papers every single day. If a man with blond hair kills and eats someone does it mean that every blond man kills and eats people? UH-OH! Watch out for blond men, they'll eat ya!! How idiotic does that sound? Well, sorry to break it to you but it's the same as accusing all goths of being degenerates, satan worshippers, just like it'd be the same as accusing all christians of child molestaion and what-have-you. Third, there is no such thing as vampires, sorry. Fourth, does not the Bible say love thy nieghbor? I'm pretty sure it does. Fifth...BC, someone needs to take a history lesson. being an art/ history major I know as well as many other know that the "Goth" tribe you speak of is the tribal name for the native germans...the "GOTH" lifestyle you describe, is taken from the word GOTHIC, which was an artistic/architectural style of the medieval period, in which Christianity became a major religion.The origional word "gothic"was a derogatory term used to descride the german goth tribes, but, oh my was taken on to describe a CHRISTIAN period in time. OH MY! Finally, my last words to MR./MS. BC (which is where this idividual seems to have been edjucated) from reading your little rant, people will realize that you are no more than a rascist, promoter of hate and intolerance for what you do not understand. You really need to wake up and realize that it's better to love and respect everyone instead of bashing what's you fail to understand. Oh, and one more thing, the word civilisation? CIVILIZATION! Learn how to spell properly before you write, you only suceed in making yourself look like more of an ass.

    something to think about (none / 0) (#200)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Aug 6th, 2001 at 06:17:57 AM PST
    First of all i ahve to say that i really disagree with the information that was orgioally stated about goths being "bad" people you say that goths try to push people and brainwash them into their culture well what the hell do you think you are doing trying to push christianity into schools and such when there is not even any evidence that jesus actually exsisted at least the things that maost of the gothic people believe in if in fact it is not jesus can be proven to be real. Now you also said that one way to stop gotic people is to put a ban on long hair well as far as i know in any pictures protraying jesus he himself has long hair his followers may not have had long hair but apparently he did, AND..... if there is a god or whatever as far as i have heard he sees all people as equal and loves all his children even if they are different so if he himself can accept the gothic people then why the hell cant you! so what if they are different! Do you hate puppies and kittens cause they walk on all fours they are different too! do you discriminate against colored people because they have a different color skin or your neibours cause they dont have the same hair color as you? NO? why not they are different from you in your mind but you know what you yourself have something very much in common with the gothic people and everyone else we are all human and thats what is important so think about these things and then shut up because until you are perfect dont talk bad about other people cause i am sure the goths can find just as many things wrong with you as you can find wrong with them!

    What kind of drugs do you take mr/ms bc? (5.00 / 1) (#202)
    by Azrael on Sun Sep 9th, 2001 at 01:47:56 AM PST
    What kind of mind-altering , reality-warping drugs Do you take Mr bc?

    If you aren't on any drugs , You are truly a person I have pity for , Maybe everything in that Library list of stupidy you wrote right there is completely and utterly FALSE! Goths and "Gothism"
    are two totally different things. The Goths were a culture of people in the midieval/dark ages era of history , While "Gothic" is described in the dictionary as a novel in a style emphasizing the grotesque, mysterious, and desolate. It doesn't mean that they follow some vampiric cult! Nor does it mean just because they wear black does it imply satanism. I myself refuse to classify myself as anyone but myself. Thats all I can , and all I will be. But I know numbers of gothic people (As your feeble article stated , a number of "gothic" people overwhelms seattle so that you cannot notice a population), I live in seattle myself. And to most people , "gothic" is a term for "dark , compelling , poetic". Its your blurred and ignorant mind that forces you to see people who have a more cynical look on life as "Satanist" and "Evil" , I can't remeber who said this quote , but you can quote me on it. "Labeling people is dangerous". Another good one would be "You can't judge what you dont understand" You cant understand what you aren't or have never been , or have never experienced. So this leaves me to this question. Are you christian? And, one other thing , how can you judge what you aren't? If you know "SOOO much" about being a "goth"...then why do you get all your facts wrong? Not every goth is a person who worships that imaginary person satan. Or that illusional god. What concensus of "Gothics" have you talked to? Maybe what...two , three , preppie wanna bes? People who just want others to feel sorry for themselves when they live exquisite lifestyles and dress dark to make people pity them? A lot of "gothic" people will be in depressive cycles because of events that happened to them , they have every damn human right to feel depression , because its something that the heart can feel! Masochism is something that is apparent in a lot of people , not just "goths" , as is sadism. I asked you if you were christian , purely because your veiws seem to be of christian value , and the whole "Its Evil" thing. Given that not all christians are like that , though I have met few and far between that aren't. And the person that you had interviewed , most likely was a born again christian , which makes him a biased and void person to interview. In reality , Gothic people can vary. I know that many goths , many, have been very poetic , and razilliant people. Not just depressive people , you just have to be able to understand what they say, apparently its not a word thats in your vocabulary "Understand". Not only goths "Heathens" , but many other people are really. Anyone that doesnt accept your veiw on a god or a religion is classed as you as a "heathen". Look at edgar allen poe , I believe he would be described as a "Gothic" person. Would you classify him as evil? I wouldn't think so. He wrote many beautiful things , things that most likely inspired many people. He was a great man to say the least." No cliques allowed in schools. If we look at high school 'jocks' we can see that they provide a wonderful role model for our children. We should elevate them to a position above other children and encourage all children to be like them. " You contradict yourself there. Jocks are a clique in their own, I believe most likely stereotyped as beating up the weaker of humans , or being the agressor. If you contradict your ways , I suggest you stuff whatever youre fighting against. Wearing of a color , black , is merely another shade of racism ,hating something , or despising someone because of a color they wear. Christian education in schools , All I can say is you're the typical kind of person that anarchists , and liberals , fight against , People that choose to take away our own rights when weve fought and died for them.

    "Ban long hair. It is well known that long hair is not Christian. No followers of Jesus ever had long hair, so all those with collar length or longer hair are under suspicion. All schools should insist in properly cropped hair, except for girls, for whom the converse applies." <--Now Im going to say this once..What the HELL kind of fucked up logic is that? Last time I checked a proper description of the worlds best salesman "Jesus" he was a long haired hippie himself!! What does it matter how long someones hair is...You totally went off-base on the subject and just made yourself look REALLY damn stupid.

    "Goth music, like the Sisters of Mercy, the Cure, and so on must be completely stamped out. We should encourage decent Godly music, like 'Yesterday' by Paul McCartney or Handel's Messiah. It has been shown that the music Goths listen to promotes depression and antisocial behaviour." Ok...What the hell does it matter really what someone listens to? Honestly! Ok , If those kind of music makes someone depressed , Its their own dealings with it. Honestly , Paul McCartney makes me Depressed and NAUSEOUS!! I Mean ,hell, Britney spears makes me depressed.

    "Earpiercings, tatoos etc banned. Another hallmark of the Goth is bodily modification. This is because they don't respect the body God gave them, and eventually they hate it. So they seek to 'improve' it with beastly decorations and implants. This must be stopped so we can have a reasonable, whole society again. " You guys , and your image , Were all a person inside , what does it matter is someone peirces theirself , or has a tattoo. Were all the same inside really. An Image does not make a person , a picture does not make a book , Nor does "clothes make a man".

    In closing, You have just reaffirmed every single value I have against people like yourself , Your judgmental ways , Your ignorance that you profess , your hate towards others , your inconcievable "Faith" in "God" which makes you want to exterminate human nature. Heh..I'm not a christian , Nor will I ever be. Im not a religion , Im not a class , Im nothing but me. I study some religion , for information , and humour sometimes. If you valued your religion, you would go by "jesus's" law. Which I believe if I read correctly is , Love thy brother as thine own self. I dont believe thats a law made by a man who is a son of some imaginary supernatural creator. But I do believe it was said by a man , a man of a true heart , and a poetic sense. A person that was a great writer..a poet..possibly to your terms , a goth.
    I have no name , But your name of an Angel , which is an Archangel of death. Azrael , Condemn me to some great underworld if you must ,I speak my mind and my heart , not from what some "Unknown spirit" tells me. Myself. Me and I.


    faith (fth)
    1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
    2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence

    See also

    Gullible adj
    1: easily deceived or tricked
    2: easily tricked because of being too trusting

    Goths (none / 0) (#203)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Sep 10th, 2001 at 09:28:14 AM PST
    How can you sit there and assume all goths are like those who shoot up schools. You are making an asumption that is totally uncalled for. How dare you knock anothers "religion" to make yours look good. Everyone has freedom to believe in what they wish as long as it hurts no one. Goths and vampyres don't hold a gun to anyones head and say do this or do that. Christ was a Jew yet your religion knocks the Jews as well. You are a hipocrite and have no right to make false accusations. I am a Good person. I never hurt no one. I work a good job, have a son and obey the Law. And after that is said and done I was born a Jew but, I like Goth and am A Vampyre by choice. I have never killed anyone, drank anyones blood (except for animal blood when I eat meat for dinner. AKA gravy.) or in anyway made someone else believe in what i believe in. You have some nerve trying to force your idealology or beliefs upon others. Just because a few people had bad experiences doesn't mean all of them are bad. You religion KILLED many with the inquisition and you have the nerve to say things like you did. The Pot should not call the Kettle black. GOD is GOD nomatter how the individual chooses to worship him. I never saw GOD come down and say you or anyone elses way was wrong or right. Animals don't worship a GOD and if they did what makes you believe that they do it your way. You are not better because you do it the way you do. To me you are no different than Hitler who thought only "his" kind were the right kind. You are like the Neo-Nazi and KKK in your thinking.

    Release the Bats (none / 0) (#205)
    by HeresysAngels1334 on Mon Nov 26th, 2001 at 03:54:41 PM PST
    Wow... now this was an interesting article! Congratulations.
    So far my wife and I used to think, that we are no Satanists, nor are we vampires. But you really educated us. I wonder, if I should repent for my entire lifestyle, my androginy, the virgins we sacrificed to evil superior powers, other than the Christian God, and let's not forgot the organisation we co-founded that is for vampirical blood donation...
    Actually, I might even be one step further into the darkness and the damnations of Hell as the "goths", you are talking about. Because not only are we the ones dressed in black, we're the ones who started all this... the Deathpunks. And yes, apart from doing EVERYTHING you described in this well-searched piece of information on the violent gothic subculture, we can also be described as "social misfits", godless Anarchists and Nihilists, glorifying self-destruction and embracing death...

    Okay, so far for the sarcasm... it's nice you have an opinion on a so-called "scene", but you know what they say about opinions, don't you?
    The next time, you have to share your ignorant point of view with the rest of the world, could you at least look the people, you are hitting on, up first? Because by writting this, you just proved, what it is, that makes kids walk into schools and shoot their classmates. No one says, you have to like goths or their subculture, but if you don't know anything real about them, just leave them alone. As in some cases ignorance is bliss.

    comment (none / 0) (#209)
    by Anonymous Reader on Mon Jun 17th, 2002 at 08:13:32 AM PST
    i think that all of these suggestions made to get rid of goths is a whole bunch of bull by doing all of this wil cause goths to go against every rule passed rule or no rule im not a goth but bringing christianity into public schools is stupid now just leave people be and stop asuming there all the same your all just a bunch of stereo types and need to get a grip and a life losers


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