Adequacy front page
Stories Diaries Polls Users
Google

Web Adequacy.org
Home About Topics Rejects Abortions
This is an archive site only. It is no longer maintained. You can not post comments. You can not make an account. Your email will not be read. Please read this page if you have questions.
Poll
Do your freethinking children read Harry Potter?
Yes, but they are smart enough to realize that "magick" is fake 26%
Yes, and it has me a bit worried 1%
No, they dismiss it as supernaturalist drivel 12%
No, I have forbidden them from doing so 7%
I don't know 1%
My children are supernaturalists 19%
I have no children 30%

Votes: 71

 The Evil of Harry Potter

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Nov 15, 2001
 Comments:
This week marks the release of the highly-anticipated Harry Potter movie, which is based on a series of outrageously popular books by author J. K. Rowling. The books have found a particularly ravenous audience in young children, who are fascinated by the tales of adventure and wizardry that the books present. Many have commented that it is wonderful to see children put aside video games and television and engage in the intellectual pursuit of reading. Others have suggested that the books are works of pure evil, and that they are a corrupting societal influence that must be fought and eventually destroyed.

Regretfully, I must side with the latter group.

religion

More stories about Religion
Holes
Is Catholicism to be tolerated?
Wicca - a scientific, Christian approach to the problem
Winning The Battle Against Pornography
Christianity isn't working in the USA; Is Islam the answer ?
The Scriptural Proof of Extraterrestrial Life
The Revival of the Ancient Ways
The Problem is You - Not Religion
We are all children of Adam and Eve
A Taliban Warlord answers YOUR questions.
Islam: What is it?
Kill Yr Idols: God
Have a Right Halloween!
Religion: The Appendix of Modern Society
Islam is not the enemy
Happy Birthday Christ!
Bloody Sunday, Bloody Right!
What shall we give up for Lent?
Reclaiming St. Patrick's Day
The Proselytizing Atheist
Let us pray for the priests and victims of sexual abuse
The Incontrovertible Existence of God
Tolkien, Star Wars and Jesus Christ
World Youth Day: An Alarming Report

More stories by
gbd

On the Establishment of a Palestinian State
Please Don't Kill Osama Bin Laden
Review: Saint Luke's Christmas Eve Candlelight Service
Looking Forward: Cinema in 2002
We Need Creationism In Our Schools
Full Frontal Rudity
America is Better than God
I am an atheist, and as such, I believe that the supernatural twaddle that so many people wave around like dirty laundry is exactly that ... twaddle. There are no gods, devils, spooks, fairies, wraiths, hobgoblins, Santa Clauses, or Easter Bunnies. Futhermore, the sooner the rest of the world realizes this, the better. We can ill afford another group of zanies slamming a fleet of Boeing 767s into high-value targets simply because we don't say the same set of "prayers" that they do. Additionally, we don't need large numbers of lunatics within our borders stockpiling Bibles and .50 caliber rifles so that one day they can fight a glorious war for their lord against the "fed-ruhl gummint" and the "lib-ruhl media."

No, the evidence is clear that supernaturalistism in all of its forms has manifested itself in the most evil of all possible ways throughout the course of human history. Since the dawn of time, civilizations have committed an untold number of atrocities in the same of some god or set of gods. Now, the apologists will argue that religion has given us Good Things such as breathtaking cathedrals, priceless works of art, and stained-glass windows ... but let's not be children here. Artists are artists, and they will create art regardless of whether or not they believe that there's some invisible spook that's going to zap them with lightning bolts if they don't paint a truly great picture.

Clearly, supernaturalistism is something that needs to be countered and dealt with in an appropriate manner. Fortunately, we're making great strides towards that goal. Churchgoing rates are plummeting, particularly in Europe, where you are ten times more likely to find a couple having recreational sex on a Sunday morning than you are to find them chanting in some church. Even in the supernaturalist-soaked United States, less and less people are going to church. A brief spike in church attendance numbers following the 9/11 attacks has since corrected itself to pre-attack levels. Furthermore, the majority of people who do attend church do so out of habit ... not out of some genuine religious conviction. Perhaps they like the post-service coffee. Perhaps they enjoy the chance to converse with their peers and swap stories about "who's banging who." The reasons for the drop are largely irrelevant; it is the drop itself that matters.

Consequently, today's children are being told the truth instead of being bombarded with all sorts of god-soaked gobbledygook about prayer and devils and how purely evil they are. They are being told that in the end, they need to look out for number 1, that there is no cosmic caped man that is going to fly in from the sky and pull them out of a burning building as long as they "pray hard enough." They aren't being told that other people from other cultures are evil and subhuman because they are "infidel devils." They are being taught respect and tolerance for all people, and these are exactly the values that are needed to restore sanity to a world that has quite clearly gone mad.

Harry Potter threatens all of this.

Even though today's children are being "trained up" in a more responsible manner than in previous generations, one thing remains constant: children are dangerously impressionable. When they read "Harry Potter" and soak up tales about wizards and witches who work magic and cast "spells", society runs the very real risk that they will start questioning their purely rationalist upbringing and begin asking themselves if maybe ... just maybe .. there isn't something to all of this. "What if magic is real?" they ask themselves. "What if there are fundamental aspects of this universe that we cannot detect with our instruments of science, strange and wonderful facets of reality that have woven themselves tightly into the very fabric of spacetime?"

Here is where rationalists must be very wary of our "friend" Harry Potter.

Fundamentalist Christians often complain that faiths such as Wicca, Paganism, Shinto, Unitarianism, Catholicism, etc. are threats because they siphon away sheep from the flock and place them in "false religions." They claim that the Harry Potter phenomenon is a major factor in this supposed massive exodus from the "true religion." I claim that the opposite is true; if the majority of today's children are irreligious rationalists and they are led to believe that Magick is reality and not fantasy, then they will naturally gravitate towards Wiccanistism or similar faiths .. as a first step.

With their Wiccan friends, children will get their first taste of the inebriating euphoria of supernaturalistism. They'll engage in bizarre rituals and start believing ridiculous and completely unsupported notions about the world around them. They will forget the teachings of Thomas Paine and become enamored with ideas so profoundly strange and obscene that they boggle the mind. Wicca and the various other "minority faiths" that are practiced in the Western world are widely regarded as "stepping-stone" religions; they give people a temporary (but extremely unhealthy) high that leads them to want to do it more and more. Pretty soon, it won't be enough.

And then one day, when they're leaving they're latest Wicca (or whatever) service, there will be a man there waiting for them. An unassuming man, to be sure; he will likely be dressed in plain, unthreatening clothes, sporting an inviting smile. He may be carrying a harmless-looking leatherbound book. He leans forward to your child, and whispers in his ear: "Want to try something really good?"

That's when children get sucked into the sordid underworld of hard religion.

The hard religions, such as Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, are by and large black holes that strive to suck our children in and never let them go. When rationalists are preyed upon by the hard religions and they venture beyond the proverbial event horizon, they often end up spending their lives wandering around bleary-eyed, a sort of silly grin on their face as they aimlessly meander, oblivious to the reality of the world around them. They mumble platitudes and spew absurdities; they become a shell of their once-rational and intelligent selves. It is likely that the detrimental effects that hard religions causes to rational society will never be accurately measured.

Still, there's hope. Not even black holes can last forever; the principles of Hawking radiation predict that even the largest black hole will eventually evaporate. The same is true of the hard religions. But Harry Potter is not helping us here, and it is the duty of the freethinker community to fight him. No, the irony of the fighting the same enemy as the fundamentalists is not lost on me. But war, as they say, makes strange bedfellows; the fundamentalists may not understand the true reasons why Harry Potter is such a threat, but we do. And if they're willing to fight our battles for us, then so much is the better.


Hot air! (1.00 / 3) (#6)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 09:57:04 AM PST
Yet another useless piece of someone wanting to hear him/herself talk. Its just a simple set of stories and nothing more.


And indeed... (none / 0) (#9)
by hauntedattics on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 10:25:49 AM PST
given that this is a discussion site, where people discuss things, what were you expecting? At least on adequacy you'll see a diversity of opinion, which is more than I can say for a good number of major media organizations.

And don't denigrate hot air too much. Some of us sell it for a living.



making a living (none / 0) (#25)
by nathan on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 04:10:56 PM PST
Don't knock it - save some money and quit, and do what you want. Don't look at it as a burden, look at it as the blessing of being allowed a rare chance at self-realization.

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

Don't get me wrong... (none / 0) (#44)
by hauntedattics on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 05:21:52 AM PST
I'm not knocking what I do for a living...I actually enjoy consulting more than any other job I've ever had. I'm just keeping my eyes open to the fact that what I'm 'manufacturing' for clients isn't anything tangible, but rather a set of ideas that ultimately may or may not help them. Keeps me humble, despite what you may have read in recent diary entries...


 
Drivel (none / 0) (#7)
by Right Hand Man on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 10:20:44 AM PST
I am an atheist
That pretty much invalidates everything you have written. You should have put that at the end, so normal people would give this article a serious read before dismissing it.

There are no gods
Agreed, there is only one, so I suppose you were correct about something. As for the rest of that paragraph, it is so utterly deviod of sensible thought that it defies explanation. Us 'lunatics' with our .50 cals are just here to protect our way of life. Unless the government chooses to put itself into harm's way we won't be bothering anyone, only exercising our Constitutional right to life and liberty, or at least the defense thereof.

You should really get to church more often. I bet that with one visit to church per week, plus an hour or two per day reading the bible, all of the paranoid delusional hatred that is so obviously pent up inside you would be washed away by the cleansing Word of the Lord. In no time you would be full of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues and seeing the signs and wonders you'd read about in the Bible. Once you got yourself cleaned up you could join us in leading children away from evil like Harry Potter, but not just to push them further toward the abyss of secular humanism that you seem to love, but toward God.


-------------------------
"Keep your bible open and your powder dry."

nonsensical... (none / 0) (#10)
by DiaphramPlatypus on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 10:39:40 AM PST
To me, what you just said made as little logical sense as the article you are replying to.

Just because someone is an athiest doesn't mean that they are instantly wrong...Just like being a part of a church doesn't instantly make anyone right (might I remind you that more people have been killed in the name of the Christian God than were killed by the Nazis durring the Holocaust)

I USED to go to church...until I realized that it was a load of bull. That is my personal belief. You can believe in God if you want, but 'He' has done nothing for me but cause me to start to go blind, be picked on because people thought that there was a remote possibilty that I was gay (it's always fun pysically fighting a religious Zealot who's acting on false information), randomly get unexplained internal bleeding all through my adolescence, etc.

Yes, I have plenty to thank 'The Divine Being' for.

There's also the fact that all the churches I've ever been in for any period of time were run by theives, but I blame Ohio for that more than Christianity...

I get constant calls trying to convert me and "bring me back into the fold"...it's annoying and violates my privacy. You can have your constiutional right to practice religion, but pushing it on other people who want nothing to do with it is just plain wrong.



Weakness (none / 0) (#11)
by Right Hand Man on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 10:52:22 AM PST
'He' has done nothing for me but cause me to start to go blind, be picked on because people thought that there was a remote possibilty that I was gay (it's always fun pysically fighting a religious Zealot who's acting on false information), randomly get unexplained internal bleeding all through my adolescence, etc
I cannot imagine that God personally foisted your problems upon you. Most likely, if those were purposeful acts done unto you by God, there would have been some locusts or frogs or something like that involved. Regardless, this clearly demonstrates that you were tainted by the weak willed leftists long before Christianity was able to turn your life around. Anyone who just gives up on God becuase they are getting bullied a bit would fit right in with that crowd.

If you don't want to worship God, fine. It isn't my lot to worry too much about you. As long as you are aware that your eternal soul damned to hell I feel like I have done all I can.


-------------------------
"Keep your bible open and your powder dry."

heh (none / 0) (#14)
by DiaphramPlatypus on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 11:31:24 AM PST
How can I be damned to hell if I'm already there?

That threat has long since stopped working on me. In fact, if there is yet another hell, then I'd be glad to take it on...see how bad it truly is.

My theory is that if there is a Hell, then I'm already there. It seems that about 90% of what I run into is based on blind obedience to something that cannot be proved and supports narrow-minded bi-polar views in a world that isn't just Black and White....which ticks me off to no end since this kind of thinking is what leads to racism, religionism, sexism, and so on. As a sidenote; it cannot be disproved either except on an individual, personal level.

This doesn't even scratch the surface of my 'hell' theory or why I believe religion of any sort is just plain wrong...that would require a rather long, drawn out explanation that I do not have time for right now...and one you would just ignore and denounce anyway.

For now, I must be off to prepare for Ethnic Studies class.

Arguing with you today has been fun.


Danger Will Robinson! (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 11:49:33 AM PST
Arguing with you today has been fun.

Can't you see this man for what he really is? He promotes speaking in tongues, for goodness' sake! We can only conclude that he is a cretin, or a tr**l trying to push you down a path which he himself would not follow.


Danger Indeed (none / 0) (#17)
by Right Hand Man on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 12:04:06 PM PST
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" -- 1st Corinthians 14:22-23

Your response is typical. I can understand that in your ignorant state you fail to see the significance of speaking in tongues, although I think you are well out of line by labeling me as a cretin.


-------------------------
"Keep your bible open and your powder dry."

Indeed; ye *are* mad. (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 12:37:41 PM PST
Face it, speaking in tongues is a giant hoax perpetrated by pranksters who say you're not saved unless you speak in them, and think the Tower of Babel was a good idea.

I think you are well out of line by labeling me as a cretin.

You may well say that, but I couldn't possibly comment.


 
Wrongly Dividing the Word (none / 0) (#29)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 06:32:22 PM PST
Seems to me that Brother Paul was trying to point out that if everyone is speaking in tongues, then visitors will think y'all are crazy, thus greatly diminishing your evengelistic effectiveness.

Truth is, most who speak in tongues these days do it as a sign -- to their fellow believers -- of "proof" that they (continue to) "have the Holy Ghost", in direct conflict with the verses you quoted.


Get a more modern translaton of the Bible, and it'll be obvious.




What (none / 0) (#43)
by Right Hand Man on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 04:45:04 AM PST
Granted, this is the only web forum I ever read save for a few firearms related sites, but the previous post is possibly the most ignorant thing I have ever seen on the internet.

Get a more modern translation of the bible? Surely you jest! And then to offer your opinion as to why people speak in tongues? That really is quite amusing.


-------------------------
"Keep your bible open and your powder dry."

Sorry, I forgot.... (none / 0) (#62)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 10:50:36 AM PST
After all, if the King James was good enough for the Apostles, then who am I to suggest a modern translation...


Silly me!





 
Hell! (none / 0) (#37)
by Nobody on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 03:42:44 AM PST
Why does religion stoop to scare tactics to convert people?

i.e. Join us or go to Hell!

Why else are there so many old people in church? It's out of FEAR and WEAKNESS.


You are quite right. (5.00 / 1) (#40)
by tkatchev on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 04:21:48 AM PST
It's quite foolish and weak to live confortably and responsibly.

Commit the ultimate act of power and domination: Kill yourself -- Destroy the world.


--
Peace and much love...




FALLACY! (1.00 / 1) (#73)
by Hagbard Celine on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 01:12:29 PM PST
In this comment you implicitly equate living confortably(I'll assume you mean comfortably) and responsibly with being Christian.

This is wrong.

I live comfortably and responsibly and I'm an atheist. Also, I bet there are plenty of comfortable and responsible Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc...

And let's not talk about power and domination. We could talk about all the power/domination bullshit that the Roman Catholic Church has engaged in during it's long bloody history. To sum up, Christian does not equal comfortable and responsible

However, don't take that to mean that Christians cannot be comfortable and responsible. I know many who are. The important thing to remember is that correlation is not causation.
PFFFFFFTT


Oh wow. (none / 0) (#82)
by tkatchev on Sat Nov 17th, 2001 at 02:19:01 AM PST
The guess the existentialist humor went right over your head, huh....


--
Peace and much love...




 
Spot on (none / 0) (#42)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 04:43:16 AM PST
Here in the UK at least, most churches are filled with the old, disabled people, social inadequates for whom it is their only chance of human contact and assorted wierdos, misfits and outcasts. At least, that's my experience.


 
Look at what you say by other eyes (none / 0) (#105)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Nov 28th, 2001 at 10:36:44 AM PST
I am an atheist
That pretty much invalidates everything you have written. You should have put that at the end, so normal people would give this article a serious read before dismissing it.


And this pretty much invalidates everything YOU have written. You should have put that at the end, so normal people would give that comment a serious read before dismissing it.

There are no gods
Agreed, there is only one, so I suppose you were correct about something. As for the rest of that paragraph, it is so utterly deviod of sensible thought that it defies explanation. Us 'lunatics' with our .50 cals are just here to protect our way of life. Unless the government chooses to put itself into harm's way we won't be bothering anyone, only exercising our Constitutional right to life and liberty, or at least the defense thereof.


Just because you agree means it is correct? And NO GODS does not mean ONE GOD. Don't try to manipulate his words to match your ideals. As for the rest of that paragraph, it is so utterly deviod of sensible thought that it defies explanation. Us 'lunatics' with our lack of god are just here to protect our way of life. Unless the government chooses to put itself into harm's way we won't be bothering anyone, only exercising our constitutional right to life and liberty, or at least the defense thereof.

You should really get to church more often. I bet that with one visit to church per week, plus an hour or two per day reading the bible, all of the paranoid delusional hatred that is so obviously pent up inside you would be washed away by the cleansing Word of the Lord. In no time you would be full of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues and seeing the signs and wonders you'd read about in the Bible. Once you got yourself cleaned up you could join us in leading children away from evil like Harry Potter, but not just to push them further toward the abyss of secular humanism that you seem to love, but toward God.

You should really get out of church more often. I bet that with one visit to the real world per week, plus an hour or two per day reading the news, all of the holyness delusional love that is so obviously pent up inside you would be washed away by the cleansing Word Of Thinking By Yourself. In no time you would realize the absurd of the irrealistic Holy Ghost, having a greater comprehension of the world that surronds you, instead of following the limited lead of the others. Once you got yourself cleaned up of that all illusion (or, after serious and deep tought without any influence of religion, discover something else that makes more sense than the much exalted and mystified Jesus Santa Easter Bunny) you could join us in investing in a better educational scheme for our children, letting them decide for themselves if they will embrace or reject religion, after individually analysing both sides.


 
And these people critisize... (none / 0) (#8)
by DiaphramPlatypus on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 10:24:10 AM PST
... the Conspiracy Theorists. That was an interesting point of view, but it just came across as paranoid to me.

I was expecting a Christian rant on this. I was rather surprised to see it as a "leading to religion". Nice spin on it.

If you look at history, people have always believed in magic one way or another (Even Christians, who say it doesn't exist...Salem Witch Hunt anyone?). I believe that they always will when it comes to anything unexplained. It could even be argued that God/Gods themselves are magical beings.

I am also an athiest. I read fantasy books where they cast magic and such (J.R.R. Tolkien's works, R.A. Slavatore's D&D books, etc). I also play RPGs (that's "Role Playing Games", for the uninformed) and watch stuff like Record of Lodoss War, BASTARD!, and am planning on seeing the upcomming Lord of the Rings movies; though the LOTR movies has more to do with knowing a girl that was in the weapons and armor department than anything else. I've participated in stuff like this ever since I could read (I read stuff like The Hobbit and fully comprehended it when I was about 6, just to give a time reference)

This doesn't mean that I believe in magic. I just think that it is a neat idea...I mean, who wouldn't want to have stuff like Gandalf's fireworks displays or levetation? *note: rhetorical question...I know some smartass will reply to it saying "I don't"*


 
Blessed are the meek (none / 0) (#13)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 11:30:59 AM PST
I used to have the same problem; people would believe in faeries, gods, and other silly nonsense. However, I noticed through time that the more intelligent people would deviate towards atheism. Why? Because they are intelligent people; they can distinguish between right and wrong, they do not require the moral crutch of religion.

But the entire population is not intelligent. Many people are weak and stupid, and I'd rather they believed an evil devilclown under their bed will kill them, or an omnipotent god would cause them an infinite amount of suffering for a mere finite amount of sin, rather than allowing them the dangerous knowledge that devilclowns and gods don't exist and there are no real moral restraints.


I wholeheartedly agree (5.00 / 2) (#23)
by T Reginald Gibbons on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 02:38:38 PM PST
I have noticed this same trend: that all the intelligent people in the world invariably gravitate towards the exact same beliefs that I hold. I have spent a lot of time trying to determine what might cause this strange attraction to my exact beliefs, but in the end, I can only suppose it is nothing more and nothing less than an affirmation of the correctness of my system of thought.


Either that... (none / 0) (#24)
by hauntedattics on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 02:42:17 PM PST
or they're all trying to sleep with you.


man... (none / 0) (#28)
by nathan on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 06:15:43 PM PST
So that's whay all those guys down at the bathhouse were reading Augustine...

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

 
All today's great intellects agree with you? (none / 0) (#110)
by Anonymous Reader on Wed Dec 12th, 2001 at 05:21:55 PM PST
Let me tell you a secret, after reading several of your posts(for example the good parenting/anti-hacker one)I decided to show it to several of my collegues.

One of our psychologists has stated that you may be "Creating your own fantasy world where you are a grounding center to the great moral questions of our times" and in order to make this a reality you must take ill-founded opinions and irrational views to feel as though you have a purpose. You are not as far as I can tell an intellegent individual. Your many mental shortcomings are readily apparent.

I cant be sure but I assume that you consider research as first deciding your standing and then looking for anything that makes your statement look correct. Including gross misrepresentation and use of misinformation. Either you are doing this deliberatly or have been sorely misinformed yourself. I personally believe that you know that what your saying is inaccurate. Why would someone do this? Because they don't respect the opinions of others and they feel that they must force their own beliefs to make everyone think exactly like themselves. You sir appear to be, in a few words, SELFISH and IGNORANT.

As of now you seem to stand with those people who beleive that "rock music was created by satan and those who listen to it are his unwitting followers." I personally do not like rock music. I find it tastless and depressing, but it is not my right to decide for ANYONE whether they enjoy it or not. The same applies for movies, books, and the way they choose to spend their free-time.

In the case of your son(the one you call a "Hacker") is not in need of limitations but of liberation from your severely lacking parenting abilities. Children need only to internalize what is right and wrong. Children are most impressionable when in early childhood not during the teens. By the age of 15 most morals are held to firmly. Children have even better morals than most adults. They don't care about money, friends and reletives are priority one, and they don't comprehend hate. Children however also need guidance when they need help, not more problems and limitations. Respect your children they are people too. Do not forget they may be of greater moral character and more observant than you are.
Trust is the foundation of love and wrongful restriction is the founder of hate. Trust your children show them that you love them.


 
Atheism. (none / 0) (#19)
by tkatchev on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 12:52:43 PM PST
Atheism is basically nothing but a form of adolescent rebellion -- atheists typically denigrate "religionists" because they think that being atheist raises them above the "crowd" and showcases their "critical thinking" skills. In reality, of course, all atheists spout the exact same childish drivel, not even stopping for a second to try and figure out what Christianity is all about. Exactly like those high-school kids who mutilate themselves because they think it highlights their "individuality", while at the same time lacking any means or desire to support themselves.

In any case, this adolescent behaviour invariably evaporates once you are forced to strike out on your own and accept responsibility. Likewise, atheists wisen up once they realize that they won't live forever. (I don't mean in an abstract way, but rather in a gut-level feeling. There is a large difference between knowing that you'll die someday, and experiencing death first-hand.)


--
Peace and much love...




Typical brainwashed claptrap. (5.00 / 1) (#20)
by Anonymous Reader on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 01:09:41 PM PST
atheists typically denigrate "religionists"

"theists", surely? Sorry to be a dictionary nazi, but let's get things straight here.
  • atheist - believes no god exists
  • monotheist - believes only one god exists
  • polytheist - believes many gods exist
  • agnostic - spineless coward who takes the philosophically easy way out
An atheist is as much a "believer" as your kind self. He will explain his untenable belief in the non-existance of any god to you, as soon as you explain your untenable belief in the existance of a god to him.

atheists wisen up once they realize that they won't live forever

Where exactly did you get this one from? Atheists don't have their vision clouded by the false promise of Heaven or immortal souls. They know that they time they have in their life is all they're gonna get, and they can either spend the time wisely, or squander it.

The mass conversion to religion as death approaches is what you see in the simpleton man, who fears the unknown and genuinely believes that ticking the box on the back of a Chick tract will continue his life beyond the grave. Sorry, but when you die, you're worm food. There is no 'heaven'. There is no 'spirit world'. There is no 'immortal soul'. Get over it. Your only further contribution to society will be the creation of some more oil, gas and coal in a few million years time.


And your point is? (none / 0) (#32)
by tkatchev on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 09:54:33 PM PST
Sorry, but straight-out nihilism is a completely untenable position.

If you want to do the nihilist act, you will have to combine it with Christian theology. (I could explain the way you can do that, if you really care.)


--
Peace and much love...




Christianity is nihilistic (none / 0) (#48)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 05:53:32 AM PST
Sorry, but straight-out nihilism is a completely untenable position.

That's quite correct. Thankfully, atheists are not nihilists, but believers. Believers in a world without gods, and believers in a strong societal moral structure without the need for a church to control it.

If you want to do the nihilist act, you will have to combine it with Christian theology.

Well, as Christians prefer their god to their neighbour, perhaps it's only fitting that they be labeled as nihilists. There's certainly nothing for them here, in 'this world'.


 
Don't knock us cowards! (none / 0) (#98)
by Anonymous Coward on Mon Nov 19th, 2001 at 01:33:16 PM PST
Cowards are the only ones who are in touch with the reality that the world is a fucking scary place. It's scary with God and scary without God.
Indeed, God doesn't hide from us, we are too frightened to see Him. And rightly so.

Well, yes, we can be saved and all that, but only by being fucking Born Again. And those people who go around claiming to be born again are nothing of the sort. It's a big fucking deal to be born again. Your ego has to die. Not just temporarily, like when you drop acid, but for ever!

In some ways, Atheists are better off because they, at least, don't think that this belief stuff is just a simple thing. Most people who claim to be believers are just Atheists who confuse God with themselves. Or with their dad. Or their local guru.

That said, what's wrong with Harry Potter is that it is poorly written drivel. It's not even as good as a made for TV movie. At least C.S. Lewis could write.
-- Support the home page homeless.

 
Thanks for the definition...hold the arrogance. (5.00 / 1) (#21)
by Hagbard Celine on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 01:20:00 PM PST
I disagree. But of course I disagree because I'm an atheist. You're making sweeping generalizations again. It just doesn't make for a good argument. You need to make the subtle distinction between those "adolescent atheists" which I do acknowledge exists and those who have given the situation serious thought. I began as an adolescent atheist but have progressed beyond that point. The reason I'm an atheist is because I truly don't believe there's any being out there guiding us/world/universe. I think that life has to exist, maybe not in our form and not even intelligent life, but life must exist. Now, this is a version of faith just as your (I assume you're a christian) faith in your god. But I would rather believe in myself and chance (synchronicity) than in god. Also, my faith is not sufficient to believe something I cannot see evidence of. While you may pass this off as an evil of science, I highly doubt anyone else would call empirical evidence "adolescent". I have accepted responsibility and support myself. I also know that I won't live forever and I do not fear death (on a gut-level). My existence is a boon to me but I do not and cannot believe that it has any significance other than to me and those around me. However, don't think I'm depressed by that (many people seem to think that when I explain this that since I accept my own demise and am not afraid that I must be some misanthrope or goth or something: this is not the case. Atheism is not adolescent nor rebellious. It is the mature conscious belief that there is no higher being or after life. This doesn't necessarily mean hostility towards those who believe in the traditional god(s).


Actually, (none / 0) (#31)
by tkatchev on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 09:50:47 PM PST
you'll grow out of it. I promise.

There is a difference between "not believing in God" and "being an atheist". Being "atheist" implies that you believe in putting yourself in active opposition to society and God. (Read your diary entry again.) Atheism by definition is rebellion; you may spout the usual atheist apologetics, but 99% of the people mean "rebellion from God and society" when they say "atheism".

Again, just because you rationalized your childish behaviour doesn't mean that you are smarter, or that your silly beliefs suddenly become valid. Children rationalize away all sorts of silly behaviours; indeed, once you stop rationalizing and start taking responsibility for your actions you may consider yourself grown-up.


--
Peace and much love...




I'm living proof... (none / 0) (#33)
by poltroon on Thu Nov 15th, 2001 at 11:00:36 PM PST
that it's possible and desirable to outgrow atheism. All my life I've casually dismissed the notion of God, and looked upon church goers as automatons. But recently, one day, it quietly struck me that the universe we live in is somebody's exploding experiment - God's, undoubtedly. In my mind's eye, he looks uncannily like this. Words can't explain how profoundly comforting it is to realize that I am part of a universe that actually belongs to Someone.


God as Yeti? (none / 0) (#45)
by hauntedattics on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 05:25:27 AM PST
Scary, scary God! That's a fascinating mind's eye you got there. I think my 'vision' of God as not really 'envision-able' to us on this level of existence is a bit more comforting.


 
words (none / 0) (#38)
by johnny ambiguous on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 03:45:36 AM PST
There is a difference between "not believing in God" and "being an atheist"... Atheism by definition is rebellion.

No, there is not. "By definition"? Look the word "atheist" up in a dictionary.

Merely because you affect to look down from the heights of some kind of "adulthood" upon someone who does not share your theological opinions does not make your idiosyncratic word-abuse meaningful; even less does it guarantee that the logical argument you propound using those letter-patterns or sound-patterns is valid.

This is not Wonderland, you know. Maybe inside your head a word means precisely and only what you wish it to mean; but out in the common world, a word is a tool used by one person to convey a meaning to another. If you insist on your own private definition, you have failed to achieve speech, the best you can hope for then is to have delivered a possibly aesthetically pleasing performance of abstract lip music.

Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net


Getting into my Chevrolet Magic Fire, I drove slowly back to the office. - L. Rosen

 
Ah, but consider this: (none / 0) (#34)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 01:22:32 AM PST
No, not one shall be forgotten who was great in the world. But each was great in his own way, and each in proportion the greatness of that which he loved. For he who loved himself became great by himself, and he who loved other men became great by his selfless devotion, but he who loved God, became greater than all. Everyone shall be remembered, but each became great in proportion to his expectation. One became great by expecting the possible, another by expecting the eternal, but he who expected the impossible became greater than all. Everyone shall be remembered, but each became great in proportion to the greatness of that with which he strove. For he who strove with the world became great by overcoming the world, and he who strove with himself became great by overcoming himself, but he who strove with God became greater than all. For there was strife in the world, man against man, one against a thousand, but he who strove with God became greater than all.*



*Big cyber-smooch to the first person who correctly gueses the source of this quote. No fair using search engines.


 
Adolescent rebellion? (none / 0) (#35)
by KoC on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 02:16:39 AM PST
Odd expression coming from one of those who refer to themselves as "children of god". An appropriate phrase really - you are children doing what "daddy says" and trusting that when things go wrong "daddy will fix it".

Wars, poverty etc. are not there because it is "gods will", they are there because people have made it so. They have chosen to make it so. The children in the third world (who have to work for a month to be able to afford a pair of laces for the Nike trainers they make) are there becuase people (the customers as much as the companies)choose to allow it to happen. It's that simple.



Thanks. (none / 0) (#39)
by tkatchev on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 04:15:50 AM PST
You explained the core of Christian philosophy quite well. In fact, that is the core of the difference between Christians and atheists -- Christians know that they have to take responsibility, wheras atheists believe that the world magically "just works".

Atheists, for example, believe in things like spontaneous appearance of life, spontaneous speciation, spontaneous social self-organization, (based on animal instincts, of all things) spontaneous economic self-organization, (Smith's "invisible hand") spontaneous ethical laws, and spontaneous "disappearance" of everything after death.

Christians understand that they are responsible for everything they do, not only here and now, but after death, as well.


--
Peace and much love...




So ... (none / 0) (#41)
by KoC on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 04:40:42 AM PST
... the "guy in a nightshirt with a big beard" theory is more plausible is it?

If you theists really cared about making the world a better place, then maybe you should stop praying, get up off your knees, and go do something about it. Sod the "church roof fund" - give your money to something worthwhile.

At least there is evidence for a scientific explanation for the universe. There is none for any "supernatural" cause.



Pure Comedy Gold. (none / 0) (#54)
by tkatchev on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 09:13:32 AM PST
Please, oh please show me the "scientific evidence" for the spontaneous self-creation of the Universe.

This is hilarious, no, really... :))


--
Peace and much love...




It's in a book ... (none / 0) (#85)
by KoC on Sat Nov 17th, 2001 at 06:13:15 AM PST
.. written over several hundred years, mistranslated between several languages with a collection of (mostly unidentified) authors who were too dumb to understand the mechanics of rainfall. Oh, sorry, that's the proof of your theory.

I should know better than to argue with your sort. A colleague used to insist that the earth was only just over 6,000 years old. When I pointed out that the Russians had drilled out an ice core which showed seasonal bands (one for every year - like tree rings density of the ice varies with temperature through the year) going back 432,000 years, he wouldn't accept it. I'm sure if you ask the Russians nicely they'd let you count them youself.

There's no point in arguing with people who, when any piece of evidence crops up, will just say "God/Satan made it look that way to test the faithful". What a heap of cr*p. Maybe the universe looks like it started at a single point about 14 billion years ago because that's in fact what happened.

Try putting "Hubble", "Hawking", "COBE" , "DIRBE" or any other related term into Google. Of course, you'r quite likely to come back with some creationist page where the slightest inconsistencies have been exagerated and the actual evidence conveniently ignored to suit their own agenda.



Bottom line: (none / 0) (#86)
by tkatchev on Sat Nov 17th, 2001 at 10:38:43 AM PST
You can have all sorts of evidence for the scientific nitty-gritty, but eschatological thought is always based purely on faith.

That's the problem with your kind, you don't realize that quantum mechanics + evolution != eschatology.

"Scientific" eschatology is as much unprovable bunk as religious eschatology. The difference is that "religious" eschatology is a well thought-out, rational system with an intellectual heritage of several millenia, whereas "scientific" eschatology basically amounts to "well... just because".


--
Peace and much love...




My apologies... (none / 0) (#87)
by tkatchev on Sat Nov 17th, 2001 at 10:49:38 AM PST
Is seems that the western meaning of "eschatology" is different from the eastern meaning... A false cognate, of sorts.

It seems catholics define "eschatology" as "the study of the Last Days".

From where I'm coming from, "eschatology" means "the study of the purpose of the Universe and man".

Oh well, I guess you learn something new every day...


--
Peace and much love...




ouch (none / 0) (#90)
by nathan on Sat Nov 17th, 2001 at 05:07:37 PM PST
French bites me like that sometimes. The world you want is probably teleology (from Gr. telos.) Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

 
Huh?? (none / 0) (#49)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 07:18:47 AM PST
Christians understand that they are responsible for everything they do, not only here and now, but after death, as well.

Like hell you do (no pun intended.) You people believe that all you have to do is "accept" Jesus (whatever that means), and then bing-bang-bong, you're in Heaven. It doesn't matter if you shoot up a busload of kindergartners with an AK-47 right before this "acceptance", just so long as you get it in before you die. This means that Heaven is brimming with serial killers whereas Hell is populated with people like Confucius and Mohandes Gandhi, great men who just happened to be backing the wrong horse. "Responsible", my foot. Christians are among the world's most dangerous people precisely because they (falsely) believe that they have some sort of cosmic "get out of jail free" card that they can play when it's convenient.

No, give me good old-fashioned atheist morality, which is grounded in the Golden Rule and the idea that good works are their own reward. Truly evolved people don't need to be threatened into ethical behavior, nor do they need cosmic carrots dangled in front of their faces to push them down "the right path."


Ignorance is bliss?? (none / 0) (#53)
by tkatchev on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 09:11:42 AM PST
You people believe that all you have to do is "accept" Jesus (whatever that means), and then bing-bang-bong, you're in Heaven.

Actually, only a very small percentage of heretical Protestant sects believe that. The vast majority of Christians would find that statement preposterous, and even offensive.

Hard-line fundamental Christianity is much closer to hard-line fundamentalist Islam than to conventional Christianity. (i.e. the Christianity of the Apostles, not the Christianity of southern baptism.) You cannot reduce complex spiritual matters ad absurdio, you'll just end up with untenable and misanthropic bunk.


--
Peace and much love...




Okay (none / 0) (#58)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 10:17:52 AM PST
Actually, only a very small percentage of heretical Protestant sects believe that. The vast majority of Christians would find that statement preposterous, and even offensive.

So according to you, the vast majority of Christians reject the notion that accepting Jesus as one's Lord and personal savior is a prerequisite to entering Heaven. According to you, this is not a basic principle of the religion, but something that is held only by "hard-line fundamentalists." Old Mohandes, Confucius, and Everybody That We Like are at this minute on Cloud 9, whereas (coincidentally) Everybody That We Don't Like is roasting in hell. Sure, Everybody That We Like consists of a large number of non-Christians, but that doesn't matter. They're still in Heaven, because We Like them.

Do you hold any beliefs that you're courageous enough to defend, or would you rather spend the entirety of your waking hours in a warm and fuzzy leftist "group hug" mentality where your religion is essentially reduced to nothing? After all, if you (as a Christian) posit that Heaven is full of non-Christians, then precisely what do you have left?


My my... (none / 0) (#60)
by hauntedattics on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 10:46:15 AM PST
...aren't we hostile? I'm a bit taken aback by your vitriol and your equating all Christians to Falwell, Robertson and the like...and I'm not even Christian.

I'll leave tkatchev to defend himself from the way you've completely twisted around the meaning of his post. If you want a (non-fundamentalist, subtle, engaging) view of heaven and hell, I suggest you read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. It's only one man's opinion, but maybe it'll give you a new perspective.


What on earth (none / 0) (#65)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 12:13:22 PM PST
are you talking about? Where did I equate all Christians to "Falwell and Robertson?" If you would be so kind as to point this out, I would appreciate it. I must admit that it is I that is taken aback. When I was a Christian, it was standard teaching that the way to get to Heaven was to accept Jesus as your savior and in doing so allow him to bear the burden of your sins for you. There are numerous verses in the Bible that state this. Jesus himself said "There is no way to the Father but through me."

If I'm reading all of this correctly, apparently the prevailing sentiment of Christianity has changed, and Jesus really doesn't matter that much anymore. Anybody can get to heaven. If that's what the modern Christian thinking is, then I must in all honesty applaud it. It is a far cry from the divisive and exclusionary claims of Christians of generations past.


wow. (none / 0) (#68)
by nathan on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 12:30:41 PM PST
So you just assumed your (presumably, snake-handling) background is exactly the same as all other Christians' background?

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

 
Conventional Christian... (none / 0) (#63)
by tkatchev on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 11:00:23 AM PST
Conventional Christian belief holds that "heaven" and "hell" is actually one and the same place. In fact, "heaven" and "hell" are simply two different states of the soul: either acceptance of God and willingness to spend eternity with God ("heaven") or rejection of God and yourself. ("hell")

So, simply accepting that "OK, I believe if Jesus" is not enough. If you want to spend eternity with God, you have to make a conscious effort to do so, something that is both spiritually and physically difficult. Nobody is holding your hand -- if you want to become closer to God, you need to proactively do it yourself.

Which is very hard in our society and our world.

P.S. Nobody knows what happens after death, except God. We can make educated guesses, based on the experience and knowledge of spiritually advanced people, but any guess we make is still going to be a rough approximation. How can we hope to fully understand an omnipotent, omniscient creator of the Universe?


--
Peace and much love...




 
how nice of you (none / 0) (#57)
by nathan on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 09:56:10 AM PST
to assume that Falwell speaks for Christians. That's ruder than assuming that Rand speaks for atheists.

Nathan
--
Li'l Sis: Yo, that's a real grey area. Even by my lax standards.

You're right (none / 0) (#59)
by Anonymous Reader on Fri Nov 16th, 2001 at 10:19:55 AM PST