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 The End Can't Justify the Means Because There Isn't One

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Oct 13, 2001
The end simply never comes so there is no way to ever settle the imbalances of unethical action in the political realm.

More diaries by Inden
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I Am Not A Pacifist - Taliban Must Go - We Must Rebuild Afghanistan Afterward
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Number Won !
Struggle With Violence Is Eternal
First Commandment: Revisit As Often As Necessary
Delicate Question for Muslims
The Reason I'm Posting on Adequacy Despite Being Unwelcome
Islam vs. non-Islam in a tiny nutshell
Nobel Prize for Irrelevance: How Wrong I Was !
Nurturing Healthy Palestinian and Israeli Senses of National Identity
West Virgina Allegory
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Meine Ehre Heisst Speaking Truth to Power
Brief Public Service Reminder
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[In the personal realm there is an end so I'll have to think about that, karma notwithstanding.]

I'm talking about the metaphysics of political actions. Immoral actions sow the seeds of their own bitter fruit in future.

Hiroshima eventually saddled the world with the threat of nuclear winter. Our unleashing and nurturing the genie of Jihadi Islamic nationalism in Afghanistan to bleed the Soviets has now come to present us with the enraged resentment of Muslims for us having toyed with them and their lives (in Iran, in Iraq also). We try to kill one devil by sponsoring a different devil and it works for a time, but only for a time. Then the cancer metastasizes.

Are democratic political ideals compatible with foreign policy? How close to the policy makers at CIA were the drug dealers who brought the cocaine into LA? How about the dealers who grew the opium in the 80's to finance the anti-Communist Afghan war? Did it start in the Vietnam campaign and just never end because the Agency found itself addicted to the easy funding source that can be found in the international drug trade? There are no oversight committees there.

The transportation is facilitated under cover of national security and our own anti-drug programs provide the liaison with foreign military commands. This official alliance stops all drug exports except the ones under the control of our allied associated gangsters who the Agency can turn to when they need some favors returned.

How close are actual Agency people to the gangsters? How many degrees of separation for plausible deniability. Or does some of the money also manage to find its way into houseboats and summer houses in Virginia and Maryland also?

[Editor's note, by zikzak] I would like to take this opportunity to point out that Adequacy has an official policy of not caring about Inden's vainglorious idiocy.


by Inden on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 03:59:52 PM PST
SO SHUT UP ALREADY" I found added to my diary entry by someone unknown. Was this the sysadmin?

What a concept a rude backtalking diary!

yup (none / 0) (#6)
by psych wanderer on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 04:41:23 PM PST
yeah I got that too- makes me giggle every time I see it- kinda brings us back to earth dontyathink??- love it
psych wanderer
"The thing I miss the most is my mind"

hehehe (none / 0) (#8)
by perdida on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 07:46:21 PM PST
Yes, isn't it fun? This is a small, friendly website, so the editors can respond to diaries, etc.. when the mood strikes them..

I would consider it a compliment that you have attracted such attention.

This is what democracy looks like

You have a point. (none / 0) (#2)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 04:03:20 PM PST
The point is very clear: All actions lead to suffering.

When you stopped for a chat with your co-worker to complement her on her new shoes, the 5 minute delay you caused her meant that she got hit by a truck, that would not have been there if you had not stopped to talk with her.

Was your action evil ?

You are a psychopathic murderer in Germany in 1938. You kill Adolf Hitler because you enjoy murdering people. Your actions save the lives of millions.

Was your action good ?

It's not all random chaos as you know (none / 0) (#3)
by Inden on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 04:12:01 PM PST
The delay 'causing' the co-worker to be hit by the bus is not a foreseeable result.

US meddling and overthrowing foreign governments for the sake of oil profits (Iran) is very foreseeable.

This is a spiritual question about free will and G-d in a way but I'm not a philosophy student. I'm a historian/political scientist/anthropologist.

You missed the point (none / 0) (#4)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 04:25:09 PM PST
Both the negative and positive results are unforseeable. Meddling in Iran may have caused problems in the middle east, but how do you know that NOT meddling would not have been worse ?

I guess the point is, that consequences of ANY action is utterly unpredictable in a chaotic system, regardless of what your intentions are.

If you think you have a good way of predicting the future, I suggest you go and work in what's left of Wall Street.

So you only believe in chaos? (none / 0) (#5)
by Inden on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 04:40:06 PM PST
Does that mean that it was the same for Nazis to kill for ideology as it was for them not to kill? Because we couldn't know that the result of them not killing wouldn't be worse?

There is right and wrong because it effects our own pride in our own values. What about that?

No (none / 0) (#7)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 05:48:00 PM PST
They were killing without knowing what the consequences were. Thus it makes no difference why they did it.

Consider: Osama Bin Laden procures terrorists to fly planes into the World Trade Center.

Most people would consider this a 'bad thing'. However, Bin-Laden and his followers have raised their profile to the point at which the USA is finally going to slap down Islamic fundamentalism.

Now you can see the disparity between intended consequences and actual consequences.

But now if you look closer you will see that we cannot predict the results of the US clampdown on Islam. Will it force the fundamentalists to become even more extreme perhaps provoking a Global Muslim backlash against the USA ?

Or will it precipitate an Islamic enlightenment causing the USA to be toppled from its position as #1 nation ?

As you can see, every action has consequences, but since they are entirely unpredictable, the rationale for any action is spurious.

It is a really difficult truth to get your head around, because it means basically that there is no such thing as right and wrong, or good and evil. But nonetheless from nature's point of view this is true.

It may help you sleep at night to believe in right and wrong, and 'justice' etc. But they are at best illusions.

A Pagan Philsophic Tendency? (none / 0) (#9)
by Inden on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 07:26:09 AM PST
Another Pagan I know also replied with this sort of idea that you can't know the ultimate consequences of your actions. Is this how Pagans escape the dilemma of having to make moral choices as humans? I don't mean this to sound as an accusation, btw. I mean Pagans are very close to the animals and the elements and the earth and I could easily see Pagans saying that we are just another animal like apes or dolphins so we don't have to think about choices because they are all zero-sum in the long run as far as Earth is concerned anyway. How far off am I?

The trouble here is that humans definately have the capacity to foresee *some* of the consequences of their actions. No, we don't foresee all the ripples and ripples within ripples of the chaos, but we do know when we are hurting others by our actions and when we are helping.

So avoiding this issue sidesteps an important component of humanity around which public policy centers. You can't slip away so easily.

Brilliant philosophy. (none / 0) (#10)
by tkatchev on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 10:42:12 AM PST
With this "pagan" philosophy you've very conveniently sidestepped the issue of sin -- you simply assumed that sin doesn't exist.

And some of these "pagans" tried to argue that paganism has nothing to do with avoiding personal responsibility. Were you lying, or was this some sort of misunderstanding on your part? Please answer.

Peace and much love...

Sin and Paganism - Who Are You Asking? (none / 0) (#11)
by Inden on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 11:21:20 AM PST
It's ambiguous to whom you are posing the sin question about Paganism. I was asking the anonymous fellow if he/she was Pagan and pointing out what looks like the defining away of morality (both sin and virtue at the same time). I'm not a Pagan, I hang out with Pagans and go to their circles sometimes and have been to a Pagan study circle but my knowledge of their ideas is by no means good enough to comment on whether Paganism deals with the question of 'sin'. 'Sin' in English is a very loaded word btw which I often avoid by using the neutral 'morality' or 'moral behavior' or 'ethics'. 'Sin' is often the language of fundementalist warriors.

Thank you for the compliment by the way. I think. Also, we won't be drafting people for Afghanistan. The war is going to be waged by the Northern Alliance (supplied and supported by Russian, Uzbek, Tajik) and the US Air Force. The US will bring back the old king and try to paint a good face on the Northern Alliance. Maybe US will preside over talks between Pakistan and the Northern Alliance to try to resolve the strong differences between them. No one in America is personally scared of war overseas. We are scared of the unknown threat of attack at home - gas masks are selling very well.

True. (none / 0) (#12)
by tkatchev on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 11:46:23 AM PST
(BTW: The comment about sin is just an echo of another thread. Sorry for rambling. :))

Actually, "sin" may be a "loaded" word in the English language, but in Christian theology it is a fairly broad and mild term -- meaning everything from unethical behaviour to "mean" thoughts and "victimless crimes". Really, you must realize that besides popular stereotypes of Christianity there is also a very rich and developed system of Christian philosophy.

It is truly sad that people are willing to learn obscure belief systems like Buddhism and Dao when there are such untold riches literally under their nose that they simply fail to notice.

Peace and much love...

P.S. (none / 0) (#13)
by tkatchev on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 11:53:16 AM PST
Yeah, I realize that most of the fighting will be done by the Northern Alliance. However, I also realize that the Northern Alliance is in actuality no different than the Taliban. Both groups are Isliamic fundamentalists. All you're going to do is replace one set of terrorists with another.

BTW, this is exactly the reason why the former Soviet Union eventually had to send in ground troops. Their first idea was (just like yours) to use one set of rebels to fight another. It didn't work; it turned out that both groups are really one and the same.

Peace and much love...

Afghan Feminism and Afghan Men (none / 0) (#15)
by Inden on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 12:16:51 PM PST
On the local radio they interviewed a representative from RAWA (the Revolutionary Afghan Women's Association), Eleanor Smeal (former NoW president, now heading the "Feminist Majority") and an Afghan born American PhD woman Sociologist about the plight of women in that crappy country and their hopes for a democratic future.

It was lovely.

Except that there are NO Afghan men who would be capable of sharing that democratic future with them. Not in this generation anyway.

All things considered, the world would have been better off if we just let the Russians stay in Afghanistan and try to support Socialism and Women's Rights and the interests of a small educated urban class. Maybe they would have left of their own accord after failing miserably. But now it seems as though the US and the West is going to start trying to reform and rebuild Afghan society from the same kind of basis as the Russians left off, except this time with a much more destroyed, destitute and miserable country.

By the way, how are we doing at recreating Russian democracy in our image in your opinion?

ln -s (none / 0) (#17)
by tkatchev on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 12:34:39 PM PST
(See my reply in my diary.)

Peace and much love...

Christianity (none / 0) (#14)
by Inden on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 12:09:18 PM PST
This is where we discuss what people who want to get along are NEVER supposed to discuss. Religion and Politics. The two big no-no topics.

Do I detect in you a Russian Orthodox Pravoslavnik? I studied Russian far more than is healthy and I am in the mood for a good conversation with a Slavophile. Even if that Slavophile writes great in English.

I am a proud secular Jew. That is my tribe and my historical legacy. My people (grandparents) are all from Eastern Europe. I am attracted to the teachings of the Quakers, especially since Philadelphia is my place of birth and city where I was brought up. I am frightened of proselytizing Christians, fundamentalists or otherwise. Just as Bin Laden steals the symbols and words of Islam to preach hatred and murder, so do the KKK and the White Power Supremacists and Zhirinovsky and the Cossack Klubs steal the proper peaceful philosophy of Christ and twist it to their purpose of hatred and historical justification for revenge on innocent people. The stories of my grandmother's terror at pogroms are still alive within my spirit. See how long terrorism lasts? The fear is passed down from generation to generation even in some people.

Power is the drug they obtain by twisting theology in this way. It lets them forget their own pain over their own personal traumas, whatever these may be. It gives them a sense of historical significance and being part of something larger than themselves. The same is true of those asshole settlers in Israel (my own tribe) who hate and fear Arabs and are doing everything they can to encourage a Third World War in the name of their crazy fantasies! Oy! These are the people who make me the most angry of all.

So what sort of Slav are you, or are you just over there as one of us Roman colonizers?

Let's go. (none / 0) (#16)
by tkatchev on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 12:21:33 PM PST
Wow, there is a lot to discuss here. I propose we start a new diary entry so as not to clog up this one. In fact, I'm doing so now.

Peace and much love...

Bhuddism teaches you to look locally first (none / 0) (#18)
by Anonymous Reader on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 02:05:54 PM PST
It is truly sad that people are willing to learn obscure belief systems like Buddhism and Dao when there are such untold riches literally under their nose that they simply fail to notice.

Indeed one of the teachings of Bhuddism is to look to your local religion first before going eastwards for enlightenment...


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