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Poll
What religion are you?
Pagan 11%
Wiccan 11%
Tao 0%
Buddhist 11%
Shinto 0%
Islam 11%
Zoroastrian 11%
Scientologist 22%
Christian 11%
Satanist 11%

Votes: 9

 Paganism

 Author:  Topic:  Posted:
Oct 13, 2001
 Comments:
Seems from looking through this site and reading some of the ill-educated comments that I will have to post some information about Paganism- and hopefully correct the racist/unenducated views of a number of people out there - Watch this space- I'll be back with some lessons on Paganism - what it is- what it is not - also some stuff about how the christian church has treated us over the years. Should be an interesting debate if any of you out there are informed enough and don't just rely on the 'my religion is right and yours is wrong' argument
diaries

More diaries by psych wanderer
Is there hope?
A site to look at if you care to
what fun
I'm researching stalkers
So.. I'm back to see the kid
whats with all this


       
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Don't dictate the terms of the discussion to me... (5.00 / 1) (#1)
by dmg on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 04:05:26 PM PST
and don't just rely on the 'my religion is right and yours is wrong' argument

Why not ? Most religions and almost all religious people use this argument.

Here you go. My religion is right, because GOD says it is right.

Go on, argue with me, see how far you get....

time to give a Newtonian demonstration - of a bullet, its mass and its acceleration.
-- MC Hawking

is that the best you can come up with? (none / 0) (#2)
by psych wanderer on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 04:14:24 PM PST
well its my discussion so why not dictate the terms- are you a christian by any chance?? lol

Lets see if YOU can convince me first eh?
psych wanderer
http://notorious-scifi.com
"The thing I miss the most is my mind"

Reasoned debate (5.00 / 1) (#7)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 06:32:57 PM PST
If your "discussion" is held under any terms other than that of a reasoned debate then its most likely worthless. The argument "my religion is the one true religion because my God says so" is actually perfectly logical and valid. You have to remember that the application of logic & reason can produce wildely different outcomes depending on your starting beliefs. If you believe that there is a one true God who speaks the truth then its perfectly logical to say that your religion is the true religion because your God says so. You could argue that its circular logic to say such things, but if your God also created the universe and everything in it then its not a circle at all, after all he created everything.

This is why I find these endless discussions about religion rather pointless. What you have is various groups of people who's core beliefs are different. You cant deny someone elses experience. You can argue against God all you want but to someone who has "seen the light" you'll just end up appearing stupid or ignorant because what your trying to do is deny the fact that they feel a divine presence in their life. The same goes for someone who feels absolutley that there is no God, trying to convince them otherwise is just as pointless. I think the main (only?) problem is that its untestable. You cant test for the existance of God, you either believe or you dont. Lets just leave it at that.

--
Nick
Atheist, even though God has assured me personally of his existance. Cunt.


This is why I find these endless discussions about (none / 0) (#8)
by psych wanderer on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 07:37:55 PM PST
well the debate didnt start off as one of those admitedly endless and boring things that you mention- yes I cannot deny another's beliefs or their experiences- i dont seek to- all i wanted to do was correct some obvious ignorance about another religion. If ppeople are still open to that - that is what i wanted to do
psych wanderer
http://notorious-scifi.com
"The thing I miss the most is my mind"

Thats a different matter... (none / 0) (#10)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 09:01:53 PM PST
Correcting mythconceptions is always a good thing. For the record, I think Paganism is alright as far as religions go. I had some friends in college who were Pagans.

I've also got some christian friends, but for some reason whenever I think of your average christian I think of a person who I know (who shall remain nameless) who is a borderline peadophile (he boned a 12yr old up the arse at age 18), porno freak (last time I was in London at a mutual friends house he bought 3 porn vids for 50, masturbated 10 times in the space of a few hours in various rooms around the house then sold them to the guy who's brother owns the house for the price of 15 out of guilt (guilt of masturbation as a sin, not that he wanked off in about 4 different rooms and probably left a few cumskiffs)), messy and otherwise disgusting. He wanted to live in the house this year but was refused on the grounds that last year he came *everywhere*, tissues, cups, carpet, you name it. Between that and never doing the dishes, you couldnt ask for a worse housemate.

He's not a bad person though, at least hes honest about it all, and he tries really hard to improve himself. Either way, whenever someone says they are a christian I now have that awful preconception in my head to dodge.

--
Nick
mmm, nicotine...


Reasoned, intelligent debate... (none / 0) (#11)
by tkatchev on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 09:52:15 PM PST
...always seems degenerate into verbal abuse of Christianity. Look, I could spout off dozens of disgusting anecdotes about pagans, but I won't -- because I understand that name-calling does more to discredit my point than anybody else's.

Why is it that "rational" and "open-minded" people become raving, foaming-at-the-mouth bigots whenever Christianity is discussed? To me, that is a very strong argument that Christianity is the one true faith. Obviously, these people know subconciously that Christianity is the true faith, but cannot admit it to themselves because it would mean making personal sacrifices that they cannot (or will not) accept.


--
Peace and much love...




Abuse of Christianity (none / 0) (#12)
by SpaceGhoti on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 02:12:24 AM PST
I believe there are two reasons why Christians get bashed by anyone who does not believe in Christianity. The first is because Christianity is the BMOC; there are arguably more people who profess to believe/practice Christianity than any other cult in the world. Catholicism is largely responsible for this. Therefore, if you want to cut down another religion to raise up your own, Christianity is the one to beat.

The other reason, and the one that incenses most Christians I'm familiar with, is that Christianity has amassed a lot of negative karma. With the Crusades, Inquisition, Salem witch hunts and similar examples over a millennia of oppression and terrorism, Christianity has earned a bad reputation. "But wait!" modern Christians protest. "That was then! We're not like that anymore!"

I'll concede the point that not every Christian is as bad as all that. That doesn't mean that other Christians aren't upholding all those nasty traditions.


A troll's true colors.

Lord God Jesus Christ... (none / 0) (#13)
by tkatchev on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 03:54:43 AM PST
What, you mean paganism hasn't amassed "negative karma"? Are you fucking kidding yourself? The supposed Christian oppression (though really that should be Roman Catholic oppression[1]) is kiddie play compared to millenia of pagan oppression and perversity. Show me any Christian sect that practices human sacrifice. (Yes, I know what you're going to say -- "That was then! We're not like that anymore!") Show me a Christian sect that believes that drug abuse and perversity are "sacred rites". Show me a Christian sect that places no ethical or moral checks on human behavior. This is exactly what I mean -- Christianity is probably the most mellow and freedom-loving religion on the face of this earth[2], yet it is the butt of 95% the verbal abuse and slander. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[1] Actually, Catholicism is the most perverted and legalistic version of Christianity. Catholicsm to Christianity is like the Taliban to Islam.

[2] Well, at least compared to other organized religions like Islam, Paganism, Buddhism, etc. (Hold off about posting pro-Buddhist flames, it's a topic for another discussion.)


--
Peace and much love...




Wicca's negative karma (5.00 / 1) (#14)
by SpaceGhoti on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 04:46:50 AM PST
Well, let's see. What acts of inhumanity has anyone done in the past millennia in the name of Wicca?

There were the Druids and their human sacrifice...but that was a different sect.

There were the witches uncovered by the Inquisition...except the Inquisition used the legal precedent of "guilty until proven innocent," requiring the innocent to prove a negative.

There were the Salem witches...again using "guilty until proven innocent" and suspected of just being a prank that got out of hand.

Hmm...let's see. There isn't a lot of documented evidence to prove that Wiccans have done anything particularly wrong in the past millennia. Except, of course, that they didn't agree with the Christians. Which, for the past thousand plus years, was more than enough to get anyone condemned to death, even if it was just a matter of interpretation.

Show me a Christian sect that believes that drug abuse and perversity are "sacred rites".

Well, that brings up a completely separate issue. Drug use is a tricky issue, since a lot of people are convinced that it's a "victimless crime." People do stupid things (including commit other crimes) to get drugs. People also do stupid things (include commit other crimes) in the name of God. People put children at risk because of drugs. People put children at risk in the name of God. Faith healing, child abuse, submersion in water, all for the sake of religious piety. That doesn't even go into the more radical sects, such as Christians who refuse medical treatment for their families because of "God's Will." Furthermore, Catholicism in its various forms is one of the mostly widely practiced version of Christianity in the world today. I don't care if you don't think of it as a Christian faith, the rest of the world does.

Then we come to the issue of perversion. Perverse by whose definition? To quote the venerable Mark Twain, "We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us." Standing outdoors and stripping naked to perform a religious ceremony might seem perverse to you, but some people might think it's natural and healthy. Conversely, you might think fasting and prayer is a healthy and spiritual thing, but it's certainly not my cup of tea. In the end, perversity like everything else is a matter of opinion. You can point to your references to justify your opinion all you want: I'll stick with what works for me, thankyouverymuchdrivethrough.

Show me a Christian sect that places no ethical or moral checks on human behavior.

Show me a Wiccan sect that places no ethical or moral checks on human behavior. I bet you I can find more Christian sects than you can find Wiccan. "An it harm none, do as thou wilt." Speculations on Crowley's influence aside, you think that isn't an ethical guideline? I think it's far more ethical than "Suffer not a witch to live." The fact that people ignore or stretch the rules governing behavior is human nature. It is not the fault of the guidelines themselves. Yes, that means Christianity in and of itself is not a bad religion. It also means that any religion or sect that promotes harmonious relations between people is a good religion. The fact that it doesn't conform to your belief patterns is beside the point.

Disagreeing with how the Universe works isn't a crime, nor is it an unwillingness to accept responsibility for one's fate. It's simply a matter of looking at the world from a different perspective. Whether or not you agree with that perspective doesn't invalidate it, no matter how much you wish it did. So long as you respect each other's boundaries and don't try to force your beliefs on each other, the most ethical course of action is to leave each other alone.

Mind you, debating the merits (or lack thereof) of each other's beliefs doesn't count as "forcing," in my book. I personally think all religions are a crock of fecal residue, but I respect people who can make religion a positive force in their lives. Don't agree with psych wanderer? That's fine. Debate it. Just don't be surprised when people (like myself) rise to the debate. It's all a matter of opinion.


A troll's true colors.

 
Are you trying to troll me, tkatchev? (none / 0) (#17)
by Adam Rightmann on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 11:02:55 AM PST
[1] Actually, Catholicism is the most perverted and legalistic version of Christianity. Catholicsm to Christianity is like the Taliban to Islam.

If anything, the recent acts of the Roman Catholic Church has been too tolerant, if you believe in what the Third Secret of Fatima foretold. If there's only one way into Heaven, can you blame us for trying to get everyone to follow that one way, ecclesiam nulla salus.


A. Rightmann

could you summarise? (none / 0) (#20)
by psych wanderer on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 12:07:20 PM PST
the secrets of Fatima plaese- just to save me reading through all that stuff on the website???
psych wanderer
http://notorious-scifi.com
"The thing I miss the most is my mind"

The Third Secret (none / 0) (#21)
by Adam Rightmann on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 12:44:24 PM PST
warned of heresy in the Church as it left behind the right Catholic ways and attempted to promote the heretical doctrine that you could be saved outside the Church.


A. Rightmann

:) great (none / 0) (#22)
by psych wanderer on Tue Oct 16th, 2001 at 09:37:19 AM PST
thankyou
psych wanderer
http://notorious-scifi.com
"The thing I miss the most is my mind"

 
true faith? (none / 0) (#16)
by Anonymous Reader on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 06:23:51 AM PST
As a non-bigoted and quite ratonal pagan I find this comment laughable - it appears that it is you who is falling into bigoted comments and non-rationalist statements- please carry on - it funny. It is you who bleieves that christianity is the 'one true faith' yet you have failed to convince me- if this is a 'foaming at the mouth' remark I would be amazed to hear so. Its people like you who give christianity a bad name


 
What I like most about paganism is (4.00 / 1) (#3)
by RobotSlave on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 04:30:26 PM PST
how very well defined it is. A brief restatement of that definition will be most welcome.

Once that is out of the way, however, we'll have to make an effort to keep things civil. Pagans alwas seem to get into screwey little semantic debates with Heathens, and there's always the stray Unbeliever or Infidel on the sidelines waiting to take pot-shots. And the whole thing will be a waste of time if we let even one of those Spiritual But Not Religious nutjobs spout off in the midst of a delicate discussion of the finer points of Heresy.


© 2002, RobotSlave. You may not reproduce this material, in whole or in part, without written permission of the owner.

rofl (none / 0) (#4)
by psych wanderer on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 04:33:12 PM PST
love it- yes lets keep away from the semantics please :) even I get confused about the different definitions people put on me :)
psych wanderer
http://notorious-scifi.com
"The thing I miss the most is my mind"

I dunno... (none / 0) (#5)
by Frithiof on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 05:10:13 PM PST
I've never really been too fond of the whole paganism thing.

I'd really like to see the discussion here devolve into a name-calling session. I find those kinds of 'conversations' most amusing.


-Frith

Asshole (1.66 / 3) (#6)
by Anonymous Reader on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 05:51:09 PM PST
Adequacy is one of the few places on the Internet where one can have an intelligent discussion and you want to turn it into a name calling session ? Fuck you, asshole.


 
I hate to break it to you (none / 0) (#9)
by Adam Rightmann on Sat Oct 13th, 2001 at 08:29:03 PM PST
but Salon had an article a while back stating that Paganism and Wiccanism were the fabrication of an 18th century Englishman. One more example of Man's Hubris, attempting to co-opt God for his own purposes.


A. Rightmann

URL? (none / 0) (#15)
by egg troll on Sun Oct 14th, 2001 at 03:24:15 PM PST
I couldn't find anything on Salon about this. Do you have a link? I would love to read this and file it away with my "Hitler was a vegatarian" arguement.


Posting for the love of the baby Jesus....

My mistake, the Atlantic, not Salon (none / 0) (#19)
by Adam Rightmann on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 11:58:30 AM PST
http://www.theatlantic.com/cgi%2Dbin/o/issues/2001/01/allen.htm


A. Rightmann

 
Wow, what a wankfest (none / 0) (#18)
by Duke Machesne on Mon Oct 15th, 2001 at 11:38:47 AM PST
Psych Warrior, I think I know of a weblog you would really like.


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once you've remembered, you'll never forget

 

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